We sat down with Kiley Turner, 49th Shelf’s Managing Editor, to have a conversation about the work she and her colleagues do to promote Canadian books, the role metadata plays in discoverability and marketing, the ways publishing and non-publishing people can use 49th Shelf, and much more.

(Scroll down for a transcript of the conversation.)

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Transcript

Nataly Alarcón: Welcome to a new episode of the BookNet Canada podcast, I am your host, Nataly Alarcón, one of the Marketing Associates at BookNet. Today, we’ll be sharing an interview we recently did with Kiley Turner from 49th Shelf. In our conversation we talked about the work 49th Shelf does, their role in promoting Canadian literature, the importance of metadata, and much more.

Before we hear Kiley’s interview, I’d like to first share the definition of ‘Canadian Contributor’, a term that you’ll hear in the interview and we at BookNet use a lot in our communications — Canadian Contributor is an author, illustrator, translator, or editor (in the case of an edited collection of material) who is a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident of Canada.

At BookNet, we love data, and one of the data points we keep track of is the number of books published by Canadian contributors. In fact, up until September 2021, there were 143,000 ISBNs flagged with a Canadian contributor in BiblioShare, BookNet’s quality-controlled data aggregation and distribution system. But, how do we keep track? The short answer is metadata. Borrowing from a great BookNet user doc that I’ll link in the notes: Publishers can help identify and promote their Canadian-authored books by identifying Canadian contributors in their ONIX files using the country code "CA" in the Contributor composite's Country Code element.

You might be wondering: “Why is flagging Canadian contributors important?” We have a very thorough blog post written by BookNet’s President & CEO Noah Genner in which he makes a case for making this a priority when working on a book’s metadata, but to give you a hint, it involves marketing, sales, and research. Again, this and any other resources mentioned today can be found in the notes.

Now, without further ado, let’s hear Kiley’s interview.

Kiley is a content marketing specialist: a writer, editor, and creative director whose projects span print, web, and mixed media. Kiley has managed publication teams, consulted with publishing houses, developed brand strategy, designed positioning strategies, and written copy and content for more sectors and styles than anyone can remember. She is the Managing Editor of 49thShelf.com, and an insightful commentator on social trends and issues.

Thank you so much for joining us, Kylie. We are so happy to have you here, and we are going to ask you some questions about the project. And let's get started. So, for those who are not familiar with 49th Shelf, why don't you tell us what is it, who is behind it, what's it for? Tell us everything.

Kiley Turner: Okay. It is actually quite hard to sum it up in a nutshell because it's so many different things, and it functions differently for various audiences. So, it's a website, it's obviously a website, but also it can be defined as being like a repository. It holds roughly 130,000 Canadian authored books across all genres, years, and subjects, categories. So, like non-fiction, kids, fiction, poetry, everything in between. And it's actually the biggest collection of Canadian books on the internet. So, in that sense, that’s the database function of it, but it also functions as a discovery centre. So, readers will pop onto the site to look for specific titles, but often also to browse around on what's new on the homepage. We've got an award winners page on the site, so they go and see what's new there. New lists, we have lists on the site, people can create their own lists, or the editors make lists, authors contribute their own theme lists. So, there's lots to look at that way. New blog posts. We post I think about three blog posts a week, so that can be author interviews, or it can be indie booksellers' picks. Just anything, anything to do with CanLit.

And so in that way, it's a discovery centre. It's a conversation starter, we extend our reach and our coverage, like what we put onto the site into social media. And we have more than 20,000 followers across Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram on top of close to 20,000, I think, members on this site. And then in some ways, it functions a bit like an influencer though we're not tied to any brand, except for Canadian-authored books. It's like we love them, and we find ways of raising awareness of the most exciting ones. And when we get passionate about a book, or a post, or a list, or an award program, it also gets others interested too because we're just kind of like a conversation in some ways.

And then I guess there are a couple of other ways, but it functions as media as well, in a context where there is shrinking coverage of books and shrinking coverage of Canadian books especially sometimes, people come to the site to find out what's new and hot. So, if you look at book title pages, or if you look at the way publishers described their books, we're often cited alongside The Globe and Mail, CBC, Quill and Quire in terms of like our editors' picks or books that we say are kind of like, you know, the best of the year or whatever.

Another thing that I wanted to mention is that 49th Shelf is produced by the Association of Canadian Publishers and that it receives financial support from the Department of Canadian Heritage and Ontario Creates. And there's a whole group of people that work every day on the site. On a rolling basis, we have designers and web developers helping us out and they really helped with the relaunch.

And the editorial team is important to mention. So, I'm the managing editor. Kerry Clare is our editor in chief, and she runs the blog generally, like a lot of the blog content. We have a series called The Chat, and Trevor Corkum is an excellent writer and interviewer, he is the guy behind that. Robert J. Wiersema is an author and former bookseller, and he runs our Shelf Talkers series that has to do with indie booksellers' recommendations that we put up once a quarter. And then we have Julie Booker, and she's our resident children's librarian columnist. And she kind of picks books for different curricula, areas, and grades, and reasons to read, and all that sort of thing.

Nataly: Our following question was about, like, what does 49th Shelf offer to publishing people and non-publishing people? But I think that just you went through, like, a lot of different options that even people who are, like, just avid readers and not necessarily involved in publishing can definitely use this tool for. And same thing with publishers, right?

Kiley: Yeah. And I think for readers, it's important because, you know, surveys, historical surveys have found that people are really interested in reading Canadian books, but that they have trouble finding them sometimes. So, it's specifically designed to just help them, help readers, help librarians, help teachers, media, anyone, make it easier for them to find Canadian books. And part of the answer to that question, too, is a data answer, which is there is a way of tagging books as Canadian authored. And so when 49th Shelf was just getting started back in 2011, we only could find about 15,000 Canadian-authored books to put onto this site, because that tag wasn't commonly used. But now we've helped to kind of encourage that country code use. And so that's enabled us to grow this site to where it is, which is 130,000, you know, or so Canadian books, which is very exciting.

And so for publishers, how can publishers use it? They can use it ... it's a marketing platform. It's another way that they can have their authors speak to readers. And, yeah, they can have their authors make lists. We've got, obviously, thousands and thousands of people looking at what's on the site. So, we encourage publishers to reach out to us. We send a newsletter to publishers twice a month, or once a month. And people can talk to us through our editors, so I'm one of the editors. Kerry Clare is our main editor, and she loves to hear pitches and ideas for how to feature books on the site. So, it's a marketing platform.

Nataly: So, there's definitely an opportunity for publishers to use this.

Kiley: Yeah. I mean, they can use it. I mean, that's sort of the active way that they can use it, but the other way that they can use it is that 49th Shelf is also a beautiful way of presenting books, that publishers can present their books and all the data about them. And so the more data that they include on their books, the better they look on 49th Shelf, and the better they look throughout the supply chain as well. So, we're looking for, you know, jacket covers, of course, but also, you know, everything from excerpts to reviews, to whether there's a series, or what category a book's in, what subject. Any information that can help a book be found on the internet is brought into the site and then our designers find a way of kind of making that interesting and attractive, and it promotes reader engagement when they're on the site as well. So, for publishers, it's really important to provide as much data as they can on their books.

Nataly: Definitely. I feel like that's something that we also preach at BookNet — please give us good metadata because that's the only way to put it out there in the world for retailers, for readers, for libraries, for everyone, right?

Kiley: Yeah.

Nataly: It's the best way to sell their books, basically.

Kiley: Yeah. I know, I remember I wrote somewhere else, I think I was telling you, but I wrote somewhere else about, you know, these studies that show the extent to which different levels of data can help to sell books, and that was back in 2017. But when was it? It was, yeah, 2017, a Nielsen book US study had found that just, you know, basic elements, like ISBN, title, format, publication date, all the really basic things would give a book a chance at 75% higher sales than those that didn't have those. And then, you know, as you added on data elements, the boost to sales was just remarkable. And so, yeah, we don't sell books off the site, but we want to make them exciting enough that people want them. And that's a data function as well, right?

Nataly: Definitely, yes. So, now, jumping to our next question, are there any strategies put in place to highlight the work of Canadian contributors that come from traditionally underrepresented communities?

Kiley: That is such an interesting question. And I should say that the editors that have been working on the site, we've been working on it ... well, Kerry and I have been on it for 10 years. So, we have watched CanLit grow and expand and change so much in that period of time. And Trevor Corkum, and Rob Wiersema, and Julie Booker, who's our resident children's librarian columnist, we've all been on it so much for so long that we've seen how much more traditionally underrepresented communities have become part of the most exciting conversations about CanLit. So, it used to be more of a strategy of a really calculated strategy, like how do we put the focus on this? But it's getting so much easier now, and part of that is also because publishers are publishing more books from, you know, non-white, you know, authors, male authors. I mean, it's like, the amount of diversity now is stunningly different than it was five years ago.

But I knew that you were going to ask that question so I asked our two editors, Kerry and Trevor, what they would say to that. And so Kerry said, "For me, it's not so much a strategy, but just a general focus on Canadian literature that defies all the CanLit cliches, and the voices of traditionally underrepresented communities is a huge part of that. When you're paying attention to what's interesting, these contributors are going to be part of it." So, that's what she had to say. And what Trevor had to say, he's the one who leads our interview series called The Chat, he says, "Not a strategy, per se, but I always make a conscious effort to profile a wide diversity of writers on The Chat. Diverse in the widest possible sense, BIPOC writers, two-spirit, LGBTQ+ writers, writers with disabilities, but also older writers, emerging writers, by genre, by underrepresented regions of the country, non-traditional hybrid approaches to writing, etc. So, no, there's not a strategy, but you can tell the way that we're thinking when we're developing our editorial program."

Nataly: I love that. I think that's amazing. I think that's the goal, right, that it just becomes so part of what is being offered that you don't necessarily have to think like, "Oh, I need to put the main focus in this specific category because it needs to be highlighted." It's just part of the whole conversation now.

Kiley: Yeah, it's kind of like breathing in a way, right? But there's so much more air now, it’s so exciting, right? And you think of some of the big award winners, I mean, the award programs over the past couple of years are incredibly different than what they would have been in the first decade of the 2000s. I'm thinking about books like, Shut Up You're Pretty by Téa Mutonji, and Brother by David Chariandy. How to Pronounce Knife was such a massive book a couple of years ago. And then, you know, another huge book has been Five Little Indians by Michelle Good. Katherena Vermette's books. Jonny Appleseed was also, you know, really big, and Jordan Tannahill this year, a Giller finalist. And those I don't think that that many of books would have been ... I think that's new that you can just run those books off now like that, you know?

Nataly: I agree. I agree. That's great. And thank you to the other editors that sent their answers. I appreciate that. So, let's jump to our next question. And we sort of talked a little bit about, like, metadata, and how it influences the work that you do and marketing, in general. So, keeping track of the books where Canadians have contributed their work is definitely not easy ... especially if they don't include the Canadian market. And we know BiblioShare, BookNet's quality control data aggregation and distribution system helps with this. But I would like to know if from your perspective on your role at 49th Shelf, if you think of there any additional steps that publishers can take from a metadata-driven point of view to get their books out there?

Kiley: That's a great question. So, yes, 49th Shelf does import data records from BiblioShare, and it also has its own data importer that's built-in to it. And so I guess something to think about, like a core concept to think about is just that a book does not just exist by itself, it's defined by a whole bunch of relationships. And all of those relationships can make it richer and allow it to find its right readers. And not only its right readers but like different kinds of readers and extend its audience. So, you know, data such as contributors, listing all the contributors, the publisher, imprint, series, subject, keyword, other editions of the same work, ebooks or audiobooks. And so on 49th Shelf, we maintain all those relationships automatically. So, we're basically trying to help readers find books by the same author or in the same series or category. And then our job then is to present that, and we have wonderful designers that help us to present that on the site in a beautiful way, in a way that promotes reader engagement.

But, yeah, I just think of like, even a few years ago, because I do the social media on Twitter and Facebook, and I would want to talk about a book ... and this is like, you know, kind of, I don't know, this isn't as relevant now because people are including their book jackets more often now. But I'd go to get excited about a book and there would not be a book jacket. I'm like, "Well, I can't. I can't do that because no one's gonna click on it." And so the more things that you give to have people engage with, the more opportunity you're gonna have to build awareness and have your book sold.

Nataly: I agree. Definitely. The visual piece is always fundamental when it comes to social media. It's so, so important. Just by name, it's just, yeah, really not easy to promote something.

Kiley: Yeah. And I think also there are different types of readers who are motivated by different things, so some are really into reviews. I know I'm one of those people, I always check out reviews, and I look at blurbs and all that sort of thing. And I think that's a definite category of readers. So, that's important. And then you think about Amazon and that Look Inside tab that they provide, the function on their books. And that really motivates a lot of people. And the equivalent of that, of course, is including an excerpt. And so we love when we see excerpts included in metadata.

Nataly: Definitely, us too. We actually published a new blog post on our website with regards to interior images and also about excerpts and cover images and how important they are and how easy it is to get them distributed among the supply chain if, you know, they just added it to the metadata. So an invitation for our listeners to check out those resources that are going to be listed in the episode notes. Okay. So, I would love to hear now what's next for 49th Shelf. I know that the website recently was updated, and it looks incredibly pretty and super user-friendly. I loved it. But, yeah, we want to hear what's next.

Kiley: It's kind of what's always next, which is trying to build more partnerships. You know, we work to help promote the Giller Award program, we're partners with the Governor General's Award program. And so we like to partner, and I think we've been doing some syndicated work with Kobo. We love to share other people's work, and we love to have our work shared. And so event organizers, any kinds of partnerships that basically help to not share our brand so much as share excitement about Canadian books and authors as widely as possible. So, we're just, you know, part of that overall ecosystem. And so just, kind of, that's what we're looking into doing is just further nurturing that. And then, obviously, further expanding our audience. So, the more chatter there is and the more wonderful podcasts like you're doing, that helps to accomplish that goal.

Nataly: So, our last question, unless you want to share something else with us, is what books by Canadian contributors do you have in your to-be-read pile at the moment?

Kiley: I have...open at the moment, I have Katherena Vermette's The Strangers. And then on my phone, I have Sean Hitchins, The Light Streamed Beneath It. And I want to read The Listeners by Jordan Tannahill. And I have heard so many people talking about Billy-Ray Belcourt's A History of My Brief Body. And so that's definitely on the list. I will probably read that before Christmas, but lots of others as well.

Nataly: Yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing. So, that's the end of all our questions. Was there anything else about the project that you wanted to share, something that we missed?

Kiley: I think a really interesting thing that happened last year if we look at the pandemic and what it did to Canadian authors and Canadian publishers of how rough that was to not be able to have in-person readings and launch opportunities, one heroic thing I thought that our editor Kerry Clare did was that she started a series called Launchpad, she did more than 60 of them over the course of that first part of the pandemic that allowed authors to come on and read a little bit from their work and talk about the most exciting parts of their books and basically have a launch, like a virtual launch. And Kerry was so passionate about it. And it was so above and beyond what her normal role was. And that sort of thing goes on a lot here, it's like we get so excited that sometimes we can't contain ourselves, and I thought that was a pretty neat thing that she did last year.

Nataly: Well, kudos to Kerry for leading such a great idea because I think, yeah, that was really important, especially back then when everything seemed so chaotic. And I know so many authors were super excited about going on tour, and then everything fell apart. So, providing those platforms, it was definitely, I think, appreciated by them, and by the readers also, you know, to discover new reads.

Kiley: I could go on and on and on, but we don't have time. But it's just the best project ever, and we love working with all the stakeholders, and the publishers, and the authors, and it's just so much fun. It's always exciting. So, that's what I'd say about it.

Nataly: Well, thank you, Kiley, for joining us today. It was amazing to have this chat with you.

Kiley: Thank you so much and thank you for the opportunity of having us on and talking about it.

Nataly: Absolutely.

Before I go, I’d like to take a moment to acknowledge that BookNet Canada staff, board, partners, and our makeshift podcast studio, operate upon the traditional territories of the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation, the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee, and Wendat indigenous peoples, the original nations of this land. We endorse the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada and support an ongoing shift from gatekeeping to space-making in the book industry. And we hope that our work, including this podcast, helps to create an environment that supports that shift. We'd also like to acknowledge the Government of Canada for their financial support through the Canada Book Fund. And of course, thanks to you for listening.

Podcast: Promoting Canadian books: An interview with 49th Shelf

(Scroll down for a transcript of the conversation.)

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