We invited Jarin Pintana, speaker at the first Swiftposium, to come and talk to us about Taylor Swift and her impact on the book industry.

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Ainsley Sparkes: Dear Reader, welcome to the BookNet Canada podcast, I’m Ainsley Sparkes. Everyone is talking about Taylor Swift these days and, Call It What You Want, but we didn’t want to be left out, so we asked Jarin Pintana to come and tell us about her presentation at Swiftposium — an academic conference about all things Swift. Jarin’s research was about Taylor Swift’s impact on the book industry.

Our conversation took place the week before Tortured Poets Department’s release, so maybe it Hits Different now but let’s hear more about it:

Thank you, Jarin, for joining us to talk about two things: one of which is always top of mind to our listeners, the book industry, and the other one is that pop culture phenomenon, which is the popularity of Taylor Swift at this moment. I feel like she's at the height of her popularity. Who can avoid Taylor Swift news these days? So, my first question is, how long have you been a Taylor Swift fan?

Jarin Pintana: Absolutely. So, I have been a Swiftie since 2006, right from the very beginning. Though I was a casual fan at first, I have grown up into a full fledged Level 13 Swiftie.

AS: So, you're here today because we heard that you went to something called Swiftposium. Can you tell us a little bit about what that is?

JP: Absolutely. Yes, Swiftposium was an academic conference based on critical dialogues about Taylor Swift, and it was held in Melbourne at the University of Melbourne. And this conference talked about her popularity and its implications on such a wide range of things like gender issues, fandom, pop culture, literature, economy, music industry, and so much more. And it was organised by six universities, I believe, across Australia and in New Zealand.

AS: Well, and it was the first of its kind?

JP: Yes, it was the very first, I think, all Taylor Swift academic conference. I think there have been a few other academic conferences which have sort of focused on a single celebrity, but I believe this was for sure the first Swiftposium and maybe the first one ever to be all about Taylor Swift.

AS: Did you have any expectations that she might pop by? Because wasn't she in Australia at that point?

JP: She was. It was my dream that she would pop by. I will not lie to you. However, this was also over the Super Bowl and there was the whole she was in Japan and then was she going to make it all the way to Vegas in time? So, I pretty much knew she wasn't going to be there. However, so the conference was the weekend before she performed in Melbourne, so it was for sure Taylor Swift week in Melbourne. But the organisers actually stated quite explicitly Taylor Swift will not be there. I think they were actually concerned security purposes that they would get swarmed with fans.

AS: So, your presentation there was on her impact on the book industry. But to me, when I think of Taylor Swift, she's not really a celebrity for me as a casual listener/new observer of Taylor Swift. I don't see a connection to books that's very prominent. She's not like a Reese Witherspoon or even like Kaia Gerber who has her book club. What am I missing? What is her connection to books?

JP: All right. So, honestly, there are so many things. I can start by saying the reason I started thinking about this was partly this past year, I just finished a Master of Publishing at Simon Fraser University. And this programme is sort of a hybrid between a scholarly master's and a professional degree. So, that's where I learnt a lot of my publishing hard skills, editing, graphic design, accounting. But we also dove into thinking about publishing from an academic perspective. And the programme really encourages you to follow your interests. So, of course, I tried to think about, talk about, incorporate Taylor Swift at basically every twist and turn. I can safely say Taylor Swift is my Roman Empire, that is, I think about her at least once a day. And unsurprisingly, it actually wasn't that hard to draw parallels between Swift's career, and her music, and book publishing.

So, for example, in that programme, I did a design project where I talked about colour, style and typography choices in Swift's album covers, which like books, often sets the tone or communicates the genre of an album the way that a book cover does. So, that's sort of how this this seed of an idea came up. But then I really started to think about it in a bigger way, in a more meaningful way when I saw Swiftposium come up as an opportunity and I was in Australia at the time. So, I, as a Swiftie, was like there's no way I'm missing out on this.

Yeah. So, for the presentation, I can say the three main things I talked about were book marketing and sales, literature that is being read and written, and then finally systems within the publishing industry itself, and the intersection of Taylor Swift with those things. So, a few examples, I guess I could say, one, I looked at how Taylor Swift's discography and music is used in book displays and book lists to sell and market books. First of all, there are tons of Taylor Swift book lists curated from books that she has maybe referenced in songs. So, an example is the song "Tolerate It." She has explicitly said that she was reading and thinking about the book Rebecca by Daphne du Maurier when she wrote that song. So, books like that, which she has explicitly talked about. Also, just books that she has said that she enjoyed or she really liked. She is quite a fan, I think, of T. S. Eliot. She's a big fan of The Great Gatsby. She loves The Great Gatsby. She's talked about it in multiple songs. There are a lot of references there as well.

But then also how her discography is being used to kind of connect books to the correct audience. So, for example, if your favourite album is Fearless, here's five books you have to read or, you know, if you love the song "Enchanted," you have to read this book. And I sort of delved into how Swift is being used as a point of familiarity, a way to connect with readers through something that they already have a deep love and understanding of. So, for example, for Swifties, if I say this book is giving Red era, I would immediately picture deep, angsty, manic heartbreak, feeling lost, trying to find yourself, really high highs and really low lows. And that is an incredible way to communicate the mood or tone of your book. And by association, it almost feels like a pseudo endorsement from Swift herself, so building off of her current celebrity as well.

AS: Yeah, that's interesting. What were the other two aspects of your paper that you just mentioned?

JP: So, literature that is being read and written, which I sort of touched on. So, for example, I read the book Rebecca by Daphne du Maurier in the context of thinking about the song "Tolerate It," not vice versa. So, I picked up, you know, what is considered a great work of classic literature because of Taylor Swift. So, it does bring, I think, a lot of classics into a more modern context and makes them more accessible and younger audiences are wanting to go back to those classics and understand kind of where Swift is coming from a lot of the time. At least that's how I felt. So, that as well as new literature that's being written, because there are in fact, I discovered for this presentation and this research, books that are written based on Taylor Swift songs. So, I know there's a...I think it's a romance. It's called 'Tis the Damn Season, which is a song off of Swift's "Evermore" album that is essentially the plot of that song. So, somebody has written a full book, but it's like the author is obviously a Swiftie and then the readers are also meant to be Swifties because it's full of Easter eggs and Taylor Swift references. So, it also creates this incredible fan to fan engagement where new works are being created.

AS: Yeah, that was one of my questions that I had sort of just semi-formed is like a fanfiction angle, right? Was it Fifty Shades of Grey that was the Twilight fanfiction?

JP: That is correct.

AS: Yeah, and I didn't know about any fanfiction for Taylor Swift, and I was assuming there must be some.

JP: Yeah, that is definitely coming out, I think, in a more legitimate way. I personally, in the past, you know, the One Direction fanfictions were so popular, but those were never really published into books, at least not that I'm aware of in the way that I think this audience, Swifties, also something I talked about in my presentation, Swifties as a market segment are being taken more seriously because the economic power that the Swifties have, we have seen, is insane. And so any industry that can take advantage of that, I think, is and should.

AS: So, what kind of things do you think Swifties want? If you're talking to book publishers, what should they be doing to appeal to this market segment?

JP: Yeah, absolutely. So, I think one of the big takeaways, first of all, is just having ... Because Swifties are primarily and I don't want to generalise because I know it is truly like a multi-generational group because it's so massive but often it is young women. And a lot of the times we see that what young women want is maybe not always taken seriously or considered good or valid. And so seeing, I think, that Swifties as a market are deeply engaged, are loyal and have such notable cultural influence, it's such an ideal market to tap into. And I think we're seeing ... So, one thing that I did talk a little bit about is Taylor Swift and BookTok because there's such an overlap, I think, between BookTok communities and between Swiftie communities, especially on social media platforms. There's, I think, an article by Dan Seed in the University of Queensland's CONTACT! Magazine where he says, "The majority of BookTok creators are young and female. Recommended genres are overwhelmingly dominated by popular romance, young adult titles, and self-help books. And the breathless emotion driven reviews are set to music by Taylor Swift, The Weeknd, and Lana Del Rey." So seeing, you know, the compatibility of kind of, I want to say maybe like, cross-pollinating between these communities, TikTok is incredibly compatible with the reader and Swiftie communities alike. We've seen the popularity and the extreme power of BookTok, but it's also the themes that are compatible because, at the intersection, I think, of these two communities, it's usually young women who are extremely passionate about the things that they love, whether that's Taylor Swift or the latest romantasy read.

AS: So, when you were developing this presentation for Swiftposium, what kind of research did you delve into?

JP: Yeah, so a lot of it was taking what I knew about publishing and then what I knew about Taylor Swift and trying to draw connections. So, very theoretical at this early stage. I would sort of be looking for specific examples where publishing and Taylor Swift intersect and then dissecting that on a critical level. So, for example, the speculation, which I had just heard about more as a Swiftie, the speculation around the "4c Untitled Flatiron Nonfiction Summer 2023" book. Did you ever hear about this?

AS: Yes. Yeah, but didn't it turn out to be the BTS book?

JP: It did. It turned out to be the BTS book. But it was, I think, the Swifties primarily who really drove it to popularity and kind of put it in the media at first. So, I guess for our listeners who don't know, there was a book in May of 2023 that nobody knew anything about, including who the author was, who hit several bestseller lists. And the book just had this placeholder title called "4c Untitled Flatiron Nonfiction Summer 2023." And it came up...

AS: Catchy.

JP: Yeah. Oh, love it. It came up because it was said to be a much anticipated celebrity memoir. And then there were all these details. You know, the author was going to be revealed on June 13th and 13 is a Swiftie number. The memoir was said to have 544 pages and 5 plus 4 plus 4 is 13 and the release date was set for July 9th, which is a Taylor Swift reference to her song "Last Kiss" off the "Speak Now" album. So, Swifties were like, "What if this is Taylor Swift's book?" and started buying it, even though it wasn't even confirmed yet and it actually hit a couple bestseller charts, I think, in the top 10 of the Amazon book sales chart. And it was even number one on the Barnes & Noble pre-order chart. Yeah, so kind of crazy that just the mere association with Taylor Swift can send a book through the roof before anybody knows anything about it. And then even once it was revealed that it was the BTS book, there are many, many articles and they're all saying, "So, Taylor Swift didn't write this book." So, even though it was revealed that she had nothing to do with it, she was still the hook that was being used to talk about it.

AS: That makes me think about Taylor Swift and her Easter eggs, right? As you just said, the Swifties, they latched onto these details where you need to maybe do a little bit of work to align with Taylor Swift, right, like adding the three numbers to get 13. And recently, I just saw a video about the album that is due to release on Friday.

JP: Yes, the "The Tortured Poets Department."

AS: That's it. And she just released a video with the clocks are all set to two, and she held up two fingers when she announced the album. And so people are thinking that she's going to drop two albums or she's going to drop the album and a book of poetry was one of the theories I heard. And I just thought this level of detective work makes me think that Swifties are a prime market for mystery novels. They seem like they could really be into that genre, but it might just be all Taylor Swift mysteries. I don't know. Is there any crossover there that you are aware of?

JP: Definitely, yes. First of all, Taylor Swift is a huge fan of true crime. She said this. She loves true crime podcasts. We see it a little bit in songs like "No Body, No Crime." And so I I definitely think yes, because I think Swift herself pulls from those things that she likes. I think she likes crime and mystery and thrillers, which then she puts into her marketing and her fan engagement. And so, first of all, I think there is already this sort of subtext of of Swifties being these masterminds, these problem solvers. We even, you know, Argylle, the book was theorised at one point to be potentially written by Taylor Swift. So, I definitely agree that there is some crossover there. And I think it's maybe not even just the mystery thriller, but the all-encompassing nature of the business, I guess. So, it's not just about Swift's music. It's her lyrics. It's also her engagement with her fans on social media. It's what she says in her appearances. It is what she wears. It's the number of fingers that she holds up just casually, you know, all that. So crazy.

And I do think we see a similar thing in book fandoms as well, especially in ... I'm currently in the Maasverse, very much the Sarah J. Maas books and in a romantasy era personally. And I see a lot of similarities in those books where you see fans hunting for one-off lines that then are a callback to an earlier series even or an earlier book. And so that kind of fan engagement and that kind of all-encompassing way to enjoy or absorb music or a book ...

AS: Or feel connected to because you're uncovering something that takes a little bit of effort, right? So, you feel more connected to the thing that you discover through your sleuthing.

JP: Absolutely. And I don't think that is necessarily limited to a specific genre, but we do see it, you know, more in certain genres than others.

AS: Do you think that there's more research in your future about Taylor Swift and the book industry?

JP: I certainly hope so. I think, you know, there's so much that we can learn from her as an artist, as a writer, as a business person. When I was at this conference, I actually had some conversations with scholars there about potentially pursuing a PhD in this area, which I would absolutely love to do. So, I hope yes because there's so much that I didn't even get into exploring. I don't even think I touched on, you know, Taylor Swift and industry. I touched on it a little bit in Swiftposium, but not even. I think I just scratched the surface. So, yes, the short answer is yes, I hope so.

AS: So, we're recording this before her album drops, but this podcast is going to be released afterwards. So, it's maybe brought to make some predictions about the release. But I think it's the San Francisco Public Library had the library installation, The Tortured Poets Department Library ...

JP: Yes, I think that's right.

AS: ... installation. And I mean, that's a very clear connection. Taylor Swift and the library is very much Taylor Swift in books. Do you think that there's more book-related stuff in her future? Do you think she will ever write a book, release a book of poetry?

JP: I certainly hope so. I think that she will eventually write a book. This is truly a fan theory as well, because there are some hints in, for example, the "All Too Well" 10-minute version of the music video. She plays an author in that, and she writes a book about her experiences as the character in the music video who is also sort of herself. So, there's that. There's also in the Eras Tour itself, the song "Seven" is converted into a spoken word poetry.

So, I think there are some hints. I personally think, yes, every poet that I know has lost their minds over this being the Tortured Poets Department. It's such a great way to shine light on poetry. And I think that we're going to see more poetry-based on Taylor Swift or based on this album. It is hard to predict because truly, I mean, I, among many other people, thought that she was going to announce Reputation (Taylor's Version) and then, nope, whole new album. So, she certainly likes to subvert expectations. But I think that the very specific link to poetry in this album, which she has played off of in a lot of the marketing and lead-up to the release, is just going to open some doors for that genre to begin with, which I think is amazing. And I hope it's a hint for more book-oriented things from her in the future.

AS: I mean, the publishing industry certainly hopes that as well. Yeah, I mean, I think it'd be really interesting actually, now that you mentioned it, to see the poetry category. Have there been any increases in poetry book sales since she announced the album?

JP: Absolutely. I have already seen, as I said, some book lists and book displays like “Five books of poetry you have to read before the Tortured Poets Department is released”. And I do think at her core, Taylor Swift is a book nerd. And so I think that, as she has grown as an artist and has been allowed the creative freedom to dive more deeply into what she wants to create versus what she has to create in order to maintain success, we are going to see more interesting things come out of her. I mean, we already have "Folklore" and "Evermore" being suddenly, I would say, much more literary albums compared to some of her earlier works. And I'm very hopeful that we're going to have that comeback.

AS: Well, thank you again. This was great.

JP: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. This has been so much fun. I love to talk about both book publishing and also about Taylor Swift. So, a dream.

AS: This interview made me curious about the sales of Poetry titles in Canada after Taylor announced the album at the 2024 Grammy Awards. So I’ve put together a short exploration on the BookNet blog which I’ll link to in the show notes if you are also curious.

It’s Time To Go, but thank you Jarin for joining us. Before I go, I’d like to take a moment to acknowledge that BookNet Canada’s operations are remote and our colleagues contribute their work from the traditional territories of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee, the Wyandot, the Mi’kmaq, the Ojibwa of Fort William First Nation, the Three Fires Confederacy of First Nations (which includes the Ojibwa, the Odawa, and the Potawatomie, and the Métis, the original nations and peoples of the lands we now call Beeton, Brampton, Guelph, Halifax, Thunder Bay, Toronto, Vaughan, and Windsor. We encourage you to visit the native-land.ca website to learn more about the peoples whose land you are listening from today. Moreover, BookNet endorses the Calls to Action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada and supports an ongoing shift from gatekeeping to spacemaking in the book industry. We'd also like to acknowledge the Government of Canada for their financial support through the Canada Book Fund. And of course, thanks to you for listening.

Podcast: Taylor Swift's impact on the book industry

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