To help celebrate Canada's 150th birthday, we sat down with Sue Carter, Editor-in-Chief at Quill & Quire, Canada's magazine for the book publishing industry, to talk about the current state of the publishing landscape and what challenges we're facing. We also discuss some statistics from our most recent research reports, including what book buyers think of Canadian books and who the most well known Canadian author is. And, of course, we speculate on what the book industry might look like in another 50 years.
(Scroll down for a transcript of the conversation.)
Transcript
Zalina: Welcome to the BookNet Canada podcast. I'm your host Zalina Alvi, the Marketing and Communications Manager at BookNet. To help celebrate Canada's 150th birthday, we've been busy these last few weeks publishing a list of the 150 bestselling Canadian books of the last 10 years, investigating the Canadian identity through keywords, posting some fun CanLit quizzes on our blog, and a few other bits and pieces. To cap off the month, we're sitting down with Sue Carter, editor-in-chief at Quill & Quire, Canada's magazine for the book publishing industry, to talk about the current state of the publishing landscape, what challenges we're facing, and what Canadians think of Canadian books. We also discuss some statistics from our most recent research reports, including what book buyers think of Canadian books, and who the most well-known Canadian author is. And of course, we speculate on what the book industry might look like in another 50 years. Enjoy.
So Quill & Quire has been around since 1935, initially as a magazine about stationery and then later adding books into the mix. It wasn't actually until the early '70s that its main focus became the book trade in Canada. Around the same time, the Association of Canadian Publishers was formed out of what was previously the Independent Publishers Association. And so shortly after the Centennial in 1967, when the national government was increasing funding for publishers, small presses began to crop up like Arsenal Pulp Press, House of Anansi, and Coach House Books. Obviously, Canadian authors have been writing books and people have been buying them for much longer than that but it was often an offshoot of the American industry. For example, Anne of Green Gables is a beloved Canadian classic that was published by a firm in the U.S. when it came out in 1908. So the publishing side seems to have taken off in those 50 intervening years which makes our industry relatively young compared to some other countries. So how far do you think we've come in those years in terms of Canadian books and publishers standing on their own in our own market? Do you think we still have far to go?
Sue: Well, it's funny because we do have all the archives here at work and so it's really fun to go back and look at all the old issues from the '70s and '80s. And what strikes me about when Quill & Quire first started really focusing on the publishing industry, is that they were able to review and list every single book that was produced in Canada and there is no way that we could do that now. So just the sheer volume and the increase of books between the '70s and now, I think it signals some health. I think sometimes maybe we publish too many books in this country. It can be difficult for people to find all of those books. And we are still in a market that's dominated by multinationals but I do feel like Canadian publishers, such as the ones that you just brought up initially, are still around. They're still thriving. I see there's still regional publishing that is relatively healthy. And I'm also, you know, I'm always buoyed by news, for instance, that like the Vancouver's Writers Festival last year hit record numbers in terms of attendance and books sold.
So I think there is appreciation from readers as well. And one of the really nice things that I think and we wrote about a couple in our September issue is the fact that there's a lot of...people are still starting out little niche publishing houses. There's a couple out of Montreal that I think...it tends to be younger publishers who want to try something different and they don't feel bound by traditional publishing rules. They're finding things out on their own. They're using online and social media in different ways. And so to me, that's the health of an industry that you can have the multinationals but then you can also have a two-person shop surviving.
Zalina: So our latest study looks at the reading habits and perceptions of book buyers in Canada when it comes to Canadian books. Since it's an update to two studies that were published by the Association of Canadian Publishers in 2002 and by us in 2012, we've been able to look at the changes that have taken place over time. One of the things that we looked at was the number of Canadian book buyers who had read a book by a Canadian author in the past year. Between 2012 and 2017, that number went up from 24% to 44%. Similarly, those who reported having read a book on a Canadian subject went up from 22% to 41%. And the rest of the respondents either said no, or that they were unsure. Does that increase surprise you?
Sue: Not really. I think a couple of things have happened. I think there are awards. Award culture has been increasing and sort of crept up. I think there's more awareness of the Giller Prize called the Giller effect in terms of winners tend to become bestsellers in this country. I think even just having it televised, I think makes a big difference. You can't argue with the Canada Reads effect as well, which I think has done a lot in terms of bringing books that, you know, and the thing that I like about Canada Reads is that it's off of backlist books too. So it's not necessarily new releases. So people are discovering old classics as well which I think is important. And I think we've had some sort of non-traditional blockbusters in the last couple of years. I mean, you can't deny the success of Chris Hadfield regardless of what you think of him as an author or an astronaut.
He was... I remember speaking to indie booksellers and his dedication to going out to events and signing everybody's books when the lineups would be out the door, I think that year really helped in terms of helping some of those indie booksellers sustain for that year. I think people like Instagram poet, Rupi Kaur, I think she single-handedly increased poetry sales in this country. So I think we have our own blockbusters now, too, which is interesting. And I also think that we've seen Canadian authors stand on their own and respond to sort of international trends. So like, there's the Paula Hawkins Girl on a Train but then, you know, Shari Lapena's book also became the number one best-selling book in Canada. So I think...and has travelled, well, internationally. So I think that there's definitely...there are more opportunities for people to find those books, I guess, and hopefully then as a result, maybe discover other Canadian authors.
Zalina: Looking internationally, Canada will be the guest of honour at the Frankfurt Book Fair in 2020. Recently, Margaret Atwood's been having kind of a moment, if you will, in the U.S. thanks to The Handmaid's Tale. And, of course, there is a long list of Canadian books that have sold successfully outside of our borders. What's your take on how Canadian publishing is perceived internationally?
Sue: I think that any hangups we have about Canadian publishing are basically our own. In terms of one thing, the number of increased translations coming into Canada. So, the number of acquisitions that Canadian publishers are making, getting world rights, English language rights for. So you know, for instance, I look at Greystone Books who had amazing success with the English translation of Hidden Life of Trees which became an international bestseller. And Greystone has successfully also acquired several other German translations. So, to me, the fact that other publishers and authors are looking to Canadian publishers as somebody who can successfully market and promote and distribute their books says something to me. And I think indie publishers such as, you know, Biblioasis and Bookhug, Anansi, have also had success with various European translations, and they're acquiring smaller but really interesting titles.
But, I think that the one thing that really gets forgotten and we tend to forget in this country is how successful our children's publishing is and I can't say enough about that. I was at Bologna a couple of years ago and I was just blown away by the response from other publishers around the world to Canadian children's books and children's publishers. We're always winning awards there, whether it's best publisher or best titles. And we're known for being socially progressive and innovative and really producing quality work and I think also some of the best illustrators in the world as well.
Zalina: Do any particular titles or anything stand out to you in that regard?
Sue: There's a whole list of them. I'm a big fan. I think there's been...well, Jon Klassen. I mean, he's international. I mean, a lot of these authors have also left the country, some of them. But, I mean, his books, you can't deny the impact of those. And then, I did see illustrators like Sydney Smith and the beautiful Sidewalk Flowers that JonArno Lawson... I hope I just got that right. It's a wordless book. It's a wordless poem but the illustrations in the story, it's just exquisite. And then also, I would say, Fanny Britt and Isabelle Arsenault who have a new graphic novel coming out this fall that I actually cried when Anansi gave me that just even the excerpt from it. It's just a beautiful story.
Zalina: Oh, lovely.
Sue: Yeah. A little sad, but yeah... No, there's so much talent and that's only a couple of them that I can think of.
Zalina: Anyway, people forget that juvenile just has a huge huge market share in Canada.
Sue: Absolutely.
Zalina: I mean it's more than nonfiction or fiction.
Sue: Yeah.
Zalina: And the crossover effect of that. I mean, and I think that we can all recognize now and understand that adults enjoy YA just as much and it's acceptable to be on the subway and read a YA title now.
Sue: Yes.
Zalina: So on a related note, we also asked Canadian book buyers to name any Canadian author and Margaret Atwood ran away with it with 37% of responses followed by "I don't know" at 20%, and Robert Munsch at 4%, I would say that's mostly the result of The Handmaid's Tale being popular right now but she was actually also at the top of the list in 2012 with 20% of responses. Why do you think she's become the go-to Canadian author? I mean, Alice Munro won the Nobel Prize and she only got 2% of responses.
Sue: I'm surprised actually that Robert Munsch is that low because every single time I look at an annual bestseller list, I'm always amazed by how many Robert Munch titles there are and how many new generations are discovering him. But, with Margaret Atwood, I think it's Twitter. I mean, she's totally accessible. She actually responds and retweets. Like, it doesn't feel like a one-way conversation. She's involved in causes and I think she seems curious, like she actually asks questions back and is engaged. And she's also a good representative of high and low culture. There doesn't seem to be any snobbery in it. She'll get her photo taken at, you know, Comic-Con. She's done graphic novels. But I think also, it's kind of funny. I had a cab driver recently who was friends with her and apparently, she called him while he was in a cab, and he had a client in the back, a customer in the back. And the woman in the back knew right away who that voice was. And I think that's probably the only author in Canada whose voice immediately people would know. So yeah, there's a lot of reasons.
Zalina: Yeah. She's probably the one Canadian author my mom could name as well.
Sue: Exactly.
Zalina: A mom rule, right? Yeah.
Sue: That's a good one. Yeah.
Zalina: So in the same study, when we asked Canadian book buyers to tell us what comes to mind when they hear the term Canadian books, the answers were a fairly predictable mix of words like history, good, wilderness, hockey, boring, and relatable. A couple of standout quotations were, "Usually interesting, but perhaps slightly strange books." And, "I think we are just too nice and the book is boring." Does that more or less line up with what you imagine to be the average Canadian book buyer's perception of Canadian books? And do you think it's accurate?
Sue: It's so funny because those sentences you get like interesting and boring, strange and nice. And I think the problem, in reality, is that Canadian publishing is not a monolith but people still think it is. And, I wish there was a nice way to convince people otherwise. But I don't blame readers so much. You know, part of the thing is that we, as I said before, we do publish a lot of books in this country and I think it's overwhelming. So people do rely on what's in front of them. I have a lot of friends who quite honestly couldn't tell you if the book that they were reading was from a Canadian author or not. There's a few exceptions, I think like Terry Fallis is one that I know people read. That is very definitely Canadian. But for the most part, a lot of my friends have no clue at all. But it really isn't a monolith.
I think if people were able to find these books...and I don't know the best way, I'm still struggling, I know everybody's struggling in terms of the discoverability and... But there's just like, amazing translations coming out of Quebec. I think Indigenous publishing and authors right now I think we're starting to see a lot more recognition of the amazing work that's being done there. More stories from LGBTQ writers and like, we have healthy grafica like our graphic novels are fantastic. And so I wish that there was a nice way we could all promote those that, you know, cut through the buzz sometimes, I guess. And it's hard too because you're not just competing with other books from other countries or big blockbusters. I think you're also always going to be competing with Netflix and various other forms of entertainment, and quite honestly, a reduced media presence as well. You know, book sections have gotten progressively smaller so...
Zalina: Yeah. A good portion of the responses we got from our survey were just, "I don't know." "Unsure." Yeah. So that's definitely part of the equation.
Sue: Yeah. And I mean, I certainly don't blame readers at all, it is overwhelming so...
Zalina: At the same time, general impressions of Canadian books have improved since 2012. Today, 84% of book buyers say they're either moderately, somewhat, or very impressed versus 70% in 2012. But then, this is entirely anecdotal. Our surveys generally get at least a few comments about Canadian books being hard to find or identify. So I mean, do you think there's...do you think retailers and publishers are doing enough to highlight and promote Canadian books to consumers? Or could they be doing more? Or do you think they're doing as much as they possibly can?
Sue: I think that this year, with the 150, I've definitely seen an effort. I mean, but obviously, something isn't sinking in if we're still in that sort of like, all books in Canada take place in a wheat field, kind of mentality so... But I don't think it's specific publishers' faults. I mean, it is an industry that is dominated by large players both on the retail and the publishing side. So, I mean, again, it is really difficult to like...how are you going to convince readers on a smaller, you know, more experimental title if they can't find it, if that is what they're looking for? But what I am always grateful for and believe that we still have in this country is that there are booksellers who still continue to hand-sell their favourite titles, and I think that that is a fantastic thing. And I think we've seen a bit more of a stabilization in terms of retail so I think that that's a good sign. I don't think we've completely recovered but I think bookselling...
There's been several independent booksellers that have opened this year and seem to be doing well and have been embraced by their local neighbourhoods, which I think is fantastic. So I think as long as those people are out there and are on the front lines, I think we'll be okay. And this is a totally off-topic thing but it is related to it. I think that there has been a real push for publishers to tell their authors that they need to be on social media promoting the books all the time, that they...if you don't have a large social media following, if you're not always out there promoting, then nobody's going to care. Well, I don't think it works. I think it works for some authors who are very comfortable with it and their books lend themselves to that. But, I think that not every author is destined to be a social media star, and in fact, it can hurt them in some sort of way. So I don't think that that advice is necessarily the best for everybody.
Zalina: Yeah. I think people have a pretty good gauge for authenticity...
Sue: Absolutely.
Zalina: ...on social media. So it's definitely not a one size fits all strategy, I suppose.
Sue: No, no.
Zalina: And, I mean, I think some people have grown and learned how to use it and... But, yeah, I think definitely, it's not for everybody. So you published an article in the June issue about the loss or scaling back of local bestseller lists and their impact on sales of regional titles, particularly for indie publishers. Indie presses tend to struggle everywhere given that they're usually up against major blockbusters and authors like Stephen King and JK Rowling. But do you see any particular challenges that are unique to regional titles being published by indie presses in Canada?
Sue: Yeah. It's not just the loss of the local bestseller list but also the consolidation of media means that fewer regional titles are getting reviewed. And, I mean, you have areas like in Nova Scotia where the Chronicle Herald staff has been... They've been on strike for, I think, 18 months now. And so while the paper is still running, I think things like books coverage are the areas that suffer. In Newfoundland, I mean, they got walloped. They got faced with an increase in the book tax and also with library closures, which is going to impact the availability and the presence of books published by regional publishers, for sure. It's definitely a problem there and I think even though the book retail market has recovered somewhat, there's still a lot of areas that are underserved, whether it's they don't have a local library or they don't have a local bookstore anymore.
And so you're going to see a rise, I think of services like Amazon in those areas because that's the only way that they're going to have books delivered. And I think that Amazon isn't exactly the first place that you're going to go to find local regional titles so I think it's definitely an issue. And I think also a lot with regional titles, a lot of them also tend to be ones that tourists pick up. And so you're also always... I mean, I think that's a perennial thing. You're always going to be at the whim of whatever's happening in that market, I know. This year is great with the 150. I have a friend who's a travel agent who said that she's never had so many people want to stay in Canada or come to Canada as this year. And she also calls it the Trudeau effect, that people are really obsessed with Canada right now. But there again, who knows? Things can change so...
Zalina: Are there any other challenges that you think are currently facing the Canadian book market? Generally, like on the literary side of things, bookselling, anything else, what obstacles to growth are we currently facing?
Sue: Yeah. I hate to say it because I am very positive about everything but when you asked me about challenges, I was able to come up with quite a few. I think publishers are getting better at publishing diverse stories but I think they have a long way to go internally in terms of ensuring there's editors of various backgrounds and staff across the board so that more balance is there. I know that there's been some efforts made but I think there's still a ways to go. I think that industry-wise, ever since Book Expo Canada, there's no one place where people can come and talk and learn. There are events but I think they are dissected some way and there isn't one place where everybody's coming together at once. I do love there's been an emergence of regional industry book fairs, which I think has been fantastic and those appear to be successful. But I do think that there's...like, nothing beats everybody being in the room at the same time and talking about things that are their challenges and successes. I think the copyright review that's taking place right now, we'll see what happens there and that certainly in particular, with educational publishing, is going to be a very big deal in the next little bit in terms of the interpretation of fair dealing in the educational system.
So I think everybody's just waiting to see what's going to happen there. And so that's always going to continue to be an issue for writers and publishers. And then I guess the final thing that worries me a bit, and especially as a nonfiction fan, is the state of the industry for midlist authors. And, Charles Foran wrote a piece about how much money and time he spent writing Mordecai and it won all of those awards, and yet, it's not enough money to survive on. And it's years of research and who can afford to write those books right now? And with such a pressure on sales, I think, and people looking for the next blockbuster, if you don't sell enough of your first book or if you don't have that social media presence, in particular in nonfiction, the chances of getting your second or third book published... Who knows what titles we could potentially be missing out on if...for all these authors...I mean, like, would we have The Book of Negroes you know, now, if Lawrence Hill's first book hadn't sold as many copies? Like you just think about all the things that potentially we could have been missing out on. So I think it's a struggle for people at that point, like in their mid-list career to be able to survive.
Zalina: Do you think the mid-list challenge is unique to Canada right now or is it also the States, is it...? I think that's been...
Sue: I think it's across the board.
Zalina: ...a long way coming?
Sue: And, you know, in like media, we should be to blame a little bit too, because it does... Everybody wants to write about the next big thing and then everybody wants to write about the established authors. I mean, you know that Margaret Atwood is always going to get a lot of press, whatever she does. But I think that if you have written let's say, two to three well-respected, well-reviewed books but maybe haven't sold a lot, I mean it's probably going to be difficult to get that necessary media coverage.
Zalina: So moving on a little bit. In our State of Digital Publishing in Canada report that we published for 2016, we asked Canadian firms about their digital publishing programs and found that Kobo topped the list of preferred channels for ebook retail distribution, with 96% using Kobo, 93% using Amazon, and 84% using Apple, followed by Barnes and Noble and Google and a few others coming in around under 60%. Meanwhile, Kobo was just profiled by The Globe and Mail as a leading ebook and e-reader retailer with a particularly strong international focus. Whereas Canadian-ness actually helped them break into other markets abroad keeping in mind, of course, that although they were sold by Indigo to the Japanese company Rakuten in 2011, they continue to operate out of Toronto. How do you account for Kobo's success particularly against major players like Amazon and Apple? What impact do you think it's had on the overall book publishing and selling landscape in Canada, if any?
Sue: I think they've been successful in terms of growing in international markets and languages where Amazon doesn't have the penetration or isn't there. I think that they handle languages really well. And I think one of the things that they've... I wasn't sure how this was going to play out whether this was going to be their downfall or the thing that propped them up, but they've remained focused on the reader market whereas the other companies, you know, they're also selling watches and films and games and everything else. So I think that that dedication is going to build brand loyalty. And I think that the somewhat underdog approach also works well for some consumers in terms of people who don't necessarily want to be with Amazon or Apple. And I think that Michael Tamblyn, CEO, he's cultivated, you know, and I've read in various interviews, a more friendly persona to the company which I think maybe counters the idea of like, the big bad guys so...
Zalina: And, yeah, I think The Globe and Mail article mentioned that they've had some success internationally, for somewhat related reasons that they didn't feel threatened by them.
Sue: Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, they've tried things too. Like, I think a couple of years ago, they were putting a big push sort of on the self-publishing. I don't think that that was necessarily as successful. It seems like they've pulled away from that. But it sounds like to me that they're still willing to...their efforts are really dedicated towards writers and authors and book lovers.
Zalina: Do you think it's had much of an impact on our market, I mean, having this successful Canadian e-retailer company doing well?
Sue: I think so. I mean, I'm not sure exactly how but I think there're always going to be people who are going to want their homegrown product and like to know where it's coming from. And, again, I think Canadians do kind of like that underdog.
Zalina: Definitely, yeah.
Sue: The little guy.
Zalina: So we also recently looked at how Canadian book buyers are consuming their books in terms of formats. While print and specifically paperback continues to be the dominant format by far, ebooks have come to account for a steady 17% to 19% of market share over the last few years. According to our consumer surveys, that's a little less than the U.S. and the UK where ebooks have recently accounted for around 25% of book sales according to Nielsen. The format's come a long way but it's still very much in its infancy. Meanwhile, audiobooks in Canada are also growing thanks to the rise of the digital format and smartphones, for the most part, but they still only accounted for about 2% of the market share. Do you think Canadian book buyers are less interested in digital books compared to the U.S. and the UK?
Sue: It's interesting. I mean, it's a pretty small difference. I actually thought that the audiobooks would be higher than 2%. I mean, it's still...it's amazing to me how well they've been doing and been increasing. I'm not sure. I do wonder about the effect of Amazon Prime in Canada versus the U.S. because my understanding is that we don't have the same access. So I wonder just how large that program is there and whether it's really, like, had the penetration here. So yeah, that's a tough one in terms of gauging interest. But I think I get the sense that it's pretty much the same across the board. I don't... Like when I read, you know, the kind of funny trend stories that tend to change every six months. You know, one month, it's like, oh, nobody's ever going to read an ebook again and then six months later, the New York Times will report that ebooks are going to destroy everything. And so there're always kind of fun stories. But I really feel like there hasn't been...I haven't seen much in terms of trends that I see coming out the States that has been that different here.
Zalina: And yet, it's pretty much in flux. And it's hard to capture very specific transactional ebook and digital audiobook sales numbers. So remains to be seen in the next few years, I think.
Sue: And I think Canadian publishers have experimented over time with trying to do sort of interesting things with bundling, you know, using codes and whatever. I'm not sure how successful that has been in terms of convincing consumers that they need to buy a like a bundled ebook and print book, whether that's something that they actually care about.
Zalina: Yeah, definitely a period of experimentation and I think consumers are open to trying things. We'll see.
Sue: Well, and I appreciate the fact that publishers are also willing to experiment and if things don't work, then, you know, don't continue. That is the beautiful thing about digital, is it does allow you to do that and react quickly.
Zalina: Yeah, definitely. So since you've got your finger on the pulse of the Canadian book market, what do you see as the emerging trends in publishing and bookselling in Canada? And since we're...you know, this is a Canada 150 retrospective of sorts, can you make a prediction of what you think...? Yeah, just tell me exactly what the industry will look like in 50 years, please.
Sue: Oh, right. Yeah. I think in the near future, I think we're going to see more indigenous publishing and indigenous authors take the stage and more diversity of stories. Like I mentioned before, I really hope that the publishing houses also reflect more of Canadian society. It has been slow but I expect to see the slow return to more local neighbourhood booksellers but maybe not as we've had them before. It might not be a traditional storefront but like I've seen situations where people are opening summer shops, or within another retail space, or... So I think that there's opportunities that people...with rentals, like rent prices, and leases being what they are right now, in so many cities. I was just out in Vancouver and just, it was astonishing to me. I always hear about Vancouver rents but just talking to people in terms of publishers having to move into smaller spaces and even having difficulty looking for launch venues because places that they would all often go would be shut down because they can't afford the rent. So I think we'll maybe see some more non-traditional booksellers opening up. And in terms of 50 years, I don't even want to... Like I just said like every six months, you know, it's that "digital's in," "digital's out," "audiobooks are great" stories. So if that's going to change every six months, I don't know what 50 years will be.
Zalina: Well, it'll be surprising.
Sue: It will be.
Zalina: Thanks to Sue for joining me for this month's episode. You can check out quillandquire.com for more book industry news and reviews from them, or visit booknetcanada.ca to see some more of our Canada 150 coverage. As always, we gratefully acknowledge the financial support of the Government of Canada through the Canada Book Fund for this project. And of course, thanks to you for listening.
