This week’s episode is very meta, in that it’s a podcast about podcasting. If your mind is still intact after being so spectacularly blown, and if you’re interested in how podcasting can help you build a relationship with your audience, then you should definitely give it a listen.
The talk is from Anshuman Iddamsetty, who up until recently hosted Hazlitt Magazine’s book podcast, The Arcade. (It was retired after more than 50 stirring episodes.) In his Tech Forum talk, he explains the unique power of sound and how it’s the ideal medium for fostering intimacy, trust, and loyalty.
If you’d like to see Anshuman’s presentation slides, you can find them here.
Want to make sure you never miss an episode of the podcast? You can subscribe for free on iTunes, Stitcher, Pocket Casts, TuneIn, or SoundCloud.
(Scroll down for a transcript of the conversation.)
Transcript
Anshuman: If you respect your audience's time, they'll respect the craft you put into it. Now, if you don't waste it, if you don't lie to them, if you don't do a bait and switch: this one weird podcast will solve X. If you don't do any of that, they will love you for it.
Zalina Alvi: This week's episode is very meta. The talk is from Anshuman Iddamsetty, the Art Director and audio/visual producer for "Hazlitt Magazine," where he produced and hosted over 50 episodes of their flagship book podcast, "The Arcade." So, basically, this is a podcast episode about podcasting. I'll give you a second to let that sink in. Over the next 30 minutes, Anshuman will talk about the unique power of sound and how book publishers can use podcasting to build loyal, intimate, and trustworthy relationships with readers. If you'd like to see his presentation slides, you can find those at slideshare.net/booknetcanada. Now, here's Anshuman.
Anshuman: Today, I would like to talk to you about sound, what we're doing with sound over at Hazlitt. In a way how sound has fulfilled one of our core mandates, basically, connecting new readers with our authors and our extensive backlist. So, in the summer of 2013, we launched a podcast, right there, "The Arcade." It's a beautiful logo designed by Michael DeForge. And it began as a multi-format variety hour. So, in a random episode, you would have a poetry reading, a long-form interview, a Q&A, and embarrassingly, a music performance. It was pretty much R&D. Let's just toss everything at a wall and see what stuck. Over time, we tightened our focus. So, now it's more of a single guest interview show. But the overall conceit is the same, smart ideas, gorgeous sound. I wanted to take what I learned at the CBC, sort of the broadcast-quality audio and put it towards a magazine product and create a podcast that, you know, no one's ever heard of before, at least for, you know, a podcast associated with the magazine.
We're about to launch our 50th episode, and I gotta say, I'm pretty proud of the guests we've had on. Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, Ta-Nehisi Coates, Glenn Greenwald, Margaret Atwood, actually, Margaret Atwood a few times. It's a good list. But why did we enter this space? I mentioned our core strategy, and that's great, connect readers, new readers, people who love podcasts, people who are intimidated by a certain author to them and their extensive backlist. But there's more to it than that. We can also introduce them to authors between books, between marketing cycles. The beauty of a podcast is once it's out there, it's sort of hard to forget. It's just always available to download. And so we found that people will go to one of our earlier episodes, a year from now, two years from now, and then connect with one of our books. And more importantly, it's important that, well, for Hazlitt, anyways, as a magazine, that we expand aggressively into as many markets as possible. And in a way, signalling fluency in what's coming up next is pretty necessary. Kind of a, you know, internet-facing magazine, it's important to let our audience know that.
And if you look at sites that share similar values, Grantland, The-All, Slate, you'll see that they've either experimented with podcasts or they're aggressively expanding with their own network. So, we kind of have to do something. And back in 2013, the state of Canadian podcasts, at least, was coming out of this country, a little anaemic at best. So, there was an opportunity, and we took it. And finally, do you guys know what this is? Yeah. Serial is amazing. And they did a lot of good things. And what I'm fascinated with about the whole Serial project is not that it got the approval of existing podcast listeners, but it's that they recruited new listeners, suddenly people who, you know, had no interest in podcasts, had no idea what a podcast was, were clamouring to download it, were trying to figure out how to download it, where to get it. And to me, that was Serial's real power. And it also reignited interest in true crime. In Hazlitt, we've seen a lot of success in doing articles and connecting our authors with true crime-related stories.
I wanna do the same thing with books, and that sort of inspired us to begin "The Arcade." How can we connect people who, you know, would never think about reading Andrew O'Hagan to go to a bookstore and pick up "The Illuminations"? Well, what if he had an amazing interview where he didn't actually talk about the book per se, but talked about his political beliefs and talked about poetry? It turned out to be an amazing episode. And, yeah, I was actually pretty proud of how that worked out. But sound is a very tricky space. And the internet, as it exists now is extremely hostile to sound. You can't really make a clip of audio go viral like you can a video, like you can a picture, a meme. I mean, video has YouTube, Vine, Instagram, and ultimately Facebook. Text has email, dark social, Twitter, and ultimately Facebook. Nothing is optimised for sound in a similar way. Google can't even scrape your podcast. So, if you have a heartbreaking moment in your show, well, unless you transcribe the whole thing, no one's gonna stumble onto it.
It's also very hard to get nuanced data about consumer behaviour. When did a person listen to your show? What were they doing? Did they have it in the background? Were they actively listening to it? How far along did they get into an episode? These are questions as a podcast producer that keep me up at night because I have no idea sometimes how something lands. And it really annoys my partner. Personally, I listen to podcasts in really weird situations. I'm always on a commute, doing dishes, vacuuming. It's just kinda nice to have that ambient noise. Podcasts also, ultimately, favour incumbents. If you look at, say a top 10 list on iTunes, who's at the very top, comedians, celebrities, people with a huge following built-in. And let's go back to Serial. Serial debuted on "This American Life". In a way, it already had an audience hand-delivered. And finally, the tech is really expensive. There's some workarounds. If you know what you're doing, you can kind of snake your way around it. But if you wanna do it right, if you wanna create a really cool product with amazing production values, that will resonate with someone, you've gotta put in a lot of money. The overhead is inescapable.
But we have some advantages to sound. And they're also advantages that Hazlitt as a whole uses all the time, pretty much, unprecedented access. We have access to amazing authors. Just think about everyone in the Penguin Random House stable, right? And now think about what that could mean for sound, who doesn't want to hear the voice of Judy Blume, the crackle of Anne Rice, Conrad Black, Sterling? These are rare moments. No other show can have this kind of access. But we have it pretty much regularly. And it's pretty impressive, but it's also an obvious advantage. Sure, we're connected to Penguin Random House. There's something else that I think sound specifically does really well that you just can't get anywhere. You can't get it with video, you can't get it with text. And it's something I learned in my time at the CBC. Intimacy. That's a very powerful advantage. The interview format itself is great for grounding someone new to an author, to a book, to the material. Sometimes authors are intimidating. Someone wants to get into Haruki Murakami does not know where to begin, right? Or Jonathan Franzen, or anyone, Camilla Gibb.
That's obvious, sure, the interview format. But there's also something called sound design, which is what I used to do at the Ceeb. It's basically using sound to evoke emotions carefully. Not just sound as in a person's voice, although that's pretty powerful, but sound effects, and music, and negative space, silences too. And we use them all together, it creates what we call at the CBC, the theatre of the mind. It's basically someone's interiority. It's incredibly powerful if you can get in. And once you're in, well, the sky's the limit. I'm not saying this in some sort of manipulative way, but usually, people put up a lot of defences when they approach something that they're unsure about. But if you can enter the theatre of the mind, if you can say, introduce a set of footsteps, and the squeak of a printer, and the low hum of an office space busy at work, you're just suggesting things. But suddenly, the listener through her own experiences starts to put all of those things together and starts to furnish that world. Suddenly, it's a busy office space. Suddenly, something larger is happening. That's the theatre of the mind. And that happens because podcasting and sound, in general, is a very intimate medium. In a way, it's her buying into what you're saying. And again, when it comes to talking about authors and our extensive backlist, it's pretty powerful.
There's also trust. You respect your audience's time. I've, in the past, tried to make sure that "The Arcade" hits a certain point. It's about, you know, 30 minutes or so, sometimes less, sometimes more, but nothing past the one hour mark, unless there's a very specific reason for it. But there are so many podcasts out there that are like four hours, three hours, five hours. They keep going. I do not have the time for that. I don't know if you guys do, please tell me how you make that happen. But if you respect your audience's time, they'll respect the craft you put into it. You know, if you don't waste it, if you don't lie to them, if you don't do a bait and switch, this one weird podcast will solve X. If you don't do any of that, they will love you for it. And ultimately, we're all busy. I described podcasts, in the past, like folding a letter, it's a form of compression. You're taking all these high brow ideas, you're taking the life experience of an author, you're taking plot and an entire narrative of how one idea turned into a book and compressing it into 11 minutes. That's pretty powerful, again, if you pay attention to what you're doing. And as a value proposition alone, I mean, my God, like, the amount of stuff you're compressing into that small-time into one little MP3 that you can put into this, come on.
Then there's loyalty. So, if you perfect intimacy and if you get their trust, your listeners will love you no matter what. They will follow your efforts to the end of the earth. And again, I don't mean that in a manipulative way, it's basically they've realized, you know what? You're not trying to pull a fast one. You genuinely want them interested in what you're saying. You're not selecting a book because, hey, the pub date is, you know, this week, you actually think, we have a certain kind of listener. We know what they want. We think this author is perfect for them. We just wanna make the connection and see what happens. They will listen to an episode, even if they hate the author. And I get emails, so pretty colourful ones. And sometimes they can even reconsider their hatred. That's pretty amazing. Yeah, no, actually it is. Wow. There's some...anyways, we'll get into that later. Some of it is sort of aspirational, right? If you hit all these marks, they just wanna share and tell the world, "Oh, look at this amazing podcast I heard. You've gotta try it. It's fantastic." Again, the serial effect.
But personally, I think it's about that undeniable connection when you hear someone else's voice. When you realize there's someone speaking to you, kind of gets your values, gets what you want to buy, gets what you want to do with your free time, and understands you don't have a lot of free time anyways. So, yeah, 20 minutes, let's talk about a book or an author, anything. Intimacy, trust, loyalty. If it sounds like I'm talking about a relationship, that's actually exactly what I'm doing, right? This is not just content. This is not a bullet point in a marketing strategy. Not exactly. It is a commitment. You're promising this is what you're gonna get off out of this if you, I don't know, spend the data plan or the time to download my show, this is what you'll get out of these 11 minutes, and then this is what you can do with those 11 minutes. And I like to give you an example. I like to play you a clip from episode 44 with William Gibson. That's us in the studio. I was extremely happy that day. If you've heard the episode, you can actually hear me smiling through the interview. That's this kind of thing, anyways.
For those of you who don't know about his latest novel, "The Peripheral" is about the future. Of course, it's about time travel. It's about a mysterious apocalypse that happens somewhere into the future. And it's about a quote, a quote from H.G. Wells, "The Time Machine." And it's a beautiful quote. "I've already told you of the sickness and confusion that comes with time travelling." Keep that quote in your head. Before we dive into the clip itself, a little housekeeping. Now, I'm not too interested in actually going into the nuts and bolts of the book. The reader will do that when they pick it up. And when we launch a podcast, we're doing it against like a publicity blitz where everyone's talking about the exact same things. It's all fine and well. You do some housekeeping where you sort of set up the reasons for why I'm speaking with William Gibson today, stuff like that. But once you get that out of the way, and again, there's nothing wrong with housekeeping, you can get into some really interesting territory.
I love William Gibson. I've followed his work forever. I also know he loves fashion. No one talks to him about fashion at all. He is such a fan of clothes. It's kind of ridiculous how this is always overlooked. He talks about clothes in his books constantly. So, I spend 45 minutes there saying, "Hey, let's talk about clothes." And I don't know, I thought it was a memorable interview. But the reason for doing this is because there's real value when you sort of separate yourself from the overall marketing strategy when you get out of the hype cycle. This podcast, this piece of content suddenly becomes atemporal. And what I mean by that is, you know, you can listen to it the moment it drops, people really get it. Someone can listen to it three years from now and still enjoy it. Again, there's real value and goes back to what I said earlier about podcasts never dying. Once that file is published, it just exists. So, might as well, you know, have fun with it.
Another thing, listening behaviour. So, in journalism school, there's that standard first day of class rule, the inverted pyramid. Everything that is super important has to go at the very top. And as you proceed down the pyramid, it gets very boring very fast, less relevant, at least. The same mechanic works with podcasts because there's no guarantee a listener will finish an episode of a podcast. None, right? Everyone's really busy. Everyone's got distractions. And because of this, the very structure of the show is affected. You have to front-load things. Stitcher is an internet radio service that we're on. It's fantastic. But what Stitcher does is because of its tools, it can tell you when your listener stops a podcast. And that's pretty powerful stuff because it kinda gives me a better sense of, okay, what am I doing wrong? Is this too long? Is this too short? If there are some trends I should be paying attention to. And thankfully, we've come out on top where our listeners, on average, kind of end at around 70%, which is pretty good. Basically, on average, it's at around the 70 mark. It's like, "You know what? I've got somewhere else to go," which is fantastic because I know where to put all my efforts. Basically, I have to dazzle them.
And if you think about every podcast being an opportunity to get a new listener on board, not just with the show, not just with the author but with the Hazlitt brand itself, I have to pull out the big guns. So, that goes back to sound design, the theatre of the mind and the clip. This clip is at the start of episode 44. And as I said earlier, or actually a couple of seconds ago, it's critical we fire the imaginations of people, nice and fast. We have to present an idea that is unique, but universal, right, provocative, explosive, but not abrasive. Some people are listening to these podcasts with those tiny little earbuds. Some of them are listening to it on a really fancy Bluetooth speaker. Some of them are trying to work, at least show that they're trying to work with, you know, one earbud in an ear. You have to take all those factors in and then create something really marvellous. So, what do we have to play with? We have that quote. It's a fantastic quote. And it's actually buried deep in the book, in the original book, "The Time Machine." So, it's not one that really stands out. We also have the fact that "The Peripheral" is William Gibson's return to writing about the future. His last trilogy was set very much in the now, the early odds.
Time travel figures heavily. Again, that's another theme you need to hit. And there's also mention of this deliriously, gloomy apocalypse. Something happens in the far future. Something Gibson teases at in the course of the book. Those are all amazing things. How can we use that to our advantage? Well, let's bring this all together. What I need to do is introduce William Gibson as this week's guest. I need to explain why he wrote a book about time travel. I need to introduce that H.G. Wells quote. And for some people introduce who H.G. Wells is. This is the nature of the beast. I have to emphasize the significance, I have to evoke mystery and suspense of the apocalypse. And using sound, start hinting at fear and confusion. It's all very theatrical. But this is the kind of stuff that really resonates with people, especially if they're unsure of the material. And I have to do this in about the time it takes for an Uber to show up. This is an old CBC rule, but if you can't get your listener hooked in the first three to five minutes, you've lost them. They're just gonna turn the dial. So, I have to do all those things in the first five minutes. So, let's do it.
This is usually a very long process, and I know we're very close to lunch, so I'm gonna just zoom by. This is what the show looks like. Basically, it's a series of stacked waveforms. Those all correspond to various sound effects. Gibson's there, I'm there. There's a record scratch somewhere there. There's music. This is what I start pretty much every waking minute. I dream about this stuff. I think it's beautiful. I can see ums and aahs right away. Actually, I can see an edit that I should have made, but I forgot to. So, anyway, we are gonna pay attention to the intro right there. And I believe we have some music attached to this as well.
William: I have already told you of the sickness and confusion that comes with time travelling.
Anshuman: It's the man himself. That's his voice. That's from the interview I conducted with him. Heavily cleaned up, heavily tweaked so he sounds as crisp and clear as possible. And then I come in. “I'm Anshuman Iddamsetty and this is "The Arcade" by "Hazlitt Magazine".” And that's a prerecorded script that...its main purpose is to hold the listener's hand. I guide them through various narrative posts and make everything apparent for them. Now, we talked about H.G. Wells. So, I wanted to go back and get some sound from that. And I found a YouTube clip, several actually from the original adaptation of George Pal's, well, "The Time Machine," it's a beautiful clip. It's got all these "like."
H.G: At first, I pushed the lever forward ever so slightly... And the laboratory grew faint around me.
Anshuman: There's that warmth, there's those atmospherics, there are sounds that we've all grown up with. And if you insert them right away, you kind of make the listener comfortable, and suddenly they realize, "I'm familiar with this. I know this." That's one defence is down. "I can buy you into this slightly," but, of course, we need music, right? And this is a creative commons library that's pretty powerful. And the music there is free to use provided we follow the rules of their license, which is totally reasonable. [Music plays] It's perfect. Oh, it's got everything you need. It's sort of noir-y. It's got that backwoods kind of vibe, but I need something else too. I need something a little more. [Chime] There you go. [More chimes] Perfect. Okay. That's where I ended the clip. Good. And...
H.G: At first, I pushed the lever forward ever so slightly... And the laboratory grew faint around me.
Anshuman: I'm Anshuman Iddamsetty, and this is "The Arcade" by "Hazlitt Magazine". Time travel, how did you first encounter the idea? Was it a movie? A comic? If I think hard enough, I'm pretty sure it was a dog eared hand me down classics illustrated copy of "The Time Machine" by H.G. Wells. It had everything, adventure, mystery, glimpses of an uncertain future.
Man: The war between the east and west, which is now in its 326th year has, at last, come to an end.
Anshuman: And this haunting quote, buried deep in the book, "I have already told you of the sickness and confusion that comes with time travelling."
William: I have already told you...
Man: There is nothing left to fight with, and few of us left to fight.
William: Of the sickness...
Man: There is no place on this planet that is immune.
William: ...and confusion.
Man: Stockpiles are rapidly diminishing.
William: That comes with time travelling.
Man: And when they are gone, we must die.
William: It's been, I don't know how long since I've actually read Wells' "The Time Machine."
Anshuman: But that all changed when this week's guest met James Gleick, the author of "Chaos" and "The Information."
William: I met him for the first time going to a literary festival in Key West.
H.G: I stopped. No change.
William: He picked me up at the airport, and as we were walking to his car...
H.G: Everything exactly as it had been before.
William: He asked me what I was working on and I said that I was fumbling around with the idea for a novel that would involve something akin to time travel.
H.G: No change. Everything exactly as it had been before. But no, the clock said 6:31 when I started, and now it was 8:09?
William: He told me that he was approaching the writing of a book about time travel as a motif.
H.G: And a candle shorter by inches.
William: So, James kept sending me bits and pieces about time travel.
H.G: And yet, by my watch, which was in the machine with me, only a few seconds had passed.
William: Over the couple of years when I was writing this and the one he said that I found most extraordinary was that quote, "I have already told you of this sickness and confusion that comes with time travel." Arguably, H.G Wells in that quote predicts jet lag. As James says, jet lag is literally the result of time travel.
Man: Some chose to take refuge in great caverns, and find a new way of life far below the earth's surface. Small as those chances might be.
Anshuman: And that's the introduction of that episode. So, a lot of things we hit. Let's introduce people with rich, warm sound, familiar sounds too. Again, the scratch and crackle of that old George Pal film. Gibson's amazing draw. The music, everything together, not to toot my own horn too much, but I like to think it all worked out quite well. And then ending with an anecdote that brings us back to the present, talking about jet lag and time travel. We do this quick little loop and we end back where we started with a really harrowing and ominous clip from the film. That's how we set it up, and hopefully, that worked. And did it. Well, let's talk about the postmortem on that episode. Shortly after we published it, you know, the thing with William Gibson is I'll admit, he's a very internet-facing author already. So, it wasn't that hard to get this going up in numbers. Hundreds started downloading it, thousands altogether. And then, of course, he was retweeting it all the time. And we started getting effects like this, where it just kept going, and going, and going, and going, kept going, still going. And that was just in the first few days.
There's also this thing and this kind of speaks to the atemporal quality of a podcast. This is a Facebook group where a group of fashionable teens came together to talk about a style of fashion called Health Goth. We talked about Health Goth a lot in the episode. As a matter of fact, I was super curious what Gibson thought about this. And then two months after the episode dropped, this shows up on Facebook. And suddenly, this is being shared with everyone on that group. Now, people directly engaging with that? Sure. Small number. But the group itself has over 25,000 likes. So, that's everywhere all of a sudden. And now we're still getting pings from Spain, Tokyo, Australia because of something I said was apparently against the Health Goth ethos. That's really clever. And I might say this because, again, these weren't teens super interested in "The Peripheral". They might have a passing interest in William Gibson. They really wanted to talk about fashion. William Gibson plus fashion. Suddenly, that is exactly what they were looking for.
And that's kind of the idea behind pulling back from the pub dates and the hype of marketing. I mean, not that there's anything wrong with it, but if you think that there's something broader we can do that there's real value being discovered after the fact, then you get these really interesting emergent effects like showing up on teen Facebook. And we were also curiously enough in this newsletter called "Today in Tabs," which I don't know if any of you guys follow, but it's basically a media cheat sheet, pretty much all of North American journalism follows it. And we were considered delightful. The second that dropped, you had to see the hits on our site. It just went, and it kept going. So, that also happened weeks after the episode dropped. Discoverability. The fact that even though we sort of launch during a pub cycle, doesn't mean it's actually appended to it is pretty powerful stuff.
But on the flip side, what happens when you kind of stay too close to the format? And, again, no shade to the "BBC World Book Club". I love that podcast. I think it's fantastic. But it's interesting that they interviewed Gibson or they had him on his show, again, during the press cycle for "The Peripheral". It's a fantastic book, it's a return-to-form, etc., etc. And yet, they asked him about "Neuromancer" his first book, a book that's almost three decades old now. You could hear it in his voice, he was exasperated. He was kind of embarrassed. He kept putting disclaimers when asked to read a passage that, I'm sorry, I haven't read this book in over 20 years, and I'm kind of embarrassed by what I wrote. Here was an opportunity lost, I think. We could have started going all sorts of places, especially given the platform that is the "BBC World Book Club". I apologize. My notes are on my phone. I just got a Snapchat. So, I'm just trying to... Okay.
An obvious solution to this is to build a really smart team who gets the authors that you're trying to pursue. People know what's relevant, what's been discussed, what's kind of done with. But on the flip side, it's also recognizing that sometimes even a compelling author isn't good enough for your show. Isn't something that speaks to the brand, the audience, the consistency you've built. And consistency is very important. I mean, can this format work with every author? Sure. Maybe. Actually, no. Sorry. It doesn't. Margaret Atwood? Yes. William Gibson? Absolutely. Andrew O'Hagan? Why not. Ben Lerner? Yes. Ta-Nehisi Coates? Of course. But not every author is compelling enough. Not every author has something to say. Not every book has a narrative built in that you can tease out, that you can use the theatre of the mind, that you can use sound design to expand. Sorry. But again, this speaks to what we were trying to do at Hazlitt, why we even began this whole project with sound. Intimacy, thoughtful, use of sound, sound design, atmospherics, music, understanding that people need something to hold onto when they listen and engage with a new property. Once you get that figured out, you can enter someone's interiority. You can speak directly to their mind.
Trust. You can't replicate this with a few marketing interns and an iPhone. This is something that is thoughtful, needs to be designed from the ground up as something that you can do and give to the listeners. I mean, you need to respect their time. They're taking the time to download you, to listen to you, to then form an opinion. And in this day and age, that's another form of labour. And if you can give them something, even if it's as simple as just entertainment, a laugh, a raised eyebrow, sure, they'll still love you for it. You value the fact your listeners took that time, and they will always reward you, ultimately with this, loyalty. As I said, they will follow you anywhere. If you pivot into a new podcast, they will follow you. If you happen to go somewhere else, if you just, you know, change jobs, oddly enough, they will follow you. They will talk about you. They will want to help you. They will suggest funding drives, initiatives. They will do the labour of marketing for you. This has happened time and time again with our shows. And it's extremely powerful. What this all means is the power of a podcast is to create a long-term relationship with the audience. One that extends past, you know, a book's on sale, one that goes beyond a certain genre being really hip right now. It's commitment. It's a trust.
They'll just trust that you have something vital to share. They're not gonna be hesitant. They're not gonna suspect anything because, in the past, you've never broken that contract. You've always said, "I think this book is for you. Maybe, let's find out. This author speaks to your interest. Maybe, let's find out. And if you disagree, I'd love to hear your reasons why," and they'll reward your work for it. Sometimes, it's just telling someone about the site, Hazlitt, this podcast, "The Arcade". Sometimes it means going into a bookstore and asking about a certain author you heard on a really delightful podcast.
Zalina: Next week, we've got our final episode in our series of "Tech Forum Talks." It's from Cory Doctorow. And it's all about, "How information doesn't want to be free." If you want to learn more about what we do, you can find us at booknetcanada.ca. Thanks to Anshuman for speaking at Tech Forum and to everyone who attended or helped put it together. We gratefully acknowledge the financial support of the government of Canada through the Canada Book Fund. And, of course, thanks to you for listening.
