Welcome back to the BookNet Canada Podcast! After bringing you a series of Tech Forum talks last season, we left to rub our hands together evilly in the wings while planning what we could bring to season two. Get ready for new formats, new topics, and a whole lot more nerdery.
Our first episode focuses on young adult fiction, which recently got its own set of BISAC codes separate from juvenile. In our recent study, The Canadian Book Buyer 2015, we discovered that adult consumers think they are purchasing 14% juvenile and 50% fiction when 2014 purchasing trends indicate consumers are actually buying 38% juvenile and 31% fiction. Does this variance indicate that adults are trending towards juvenile without realizing it?
We invited a panel of Canadian publishing experts who are passionate about YA literature to chat with our host Krista Mitchell about this trend and speculate about what might be causing adults to misidentify YA books. Meet our panel:
Allister Thompson has been in the Canadian industry acquiring young adult fiction for 17 years, with numerous shortlistings for Silver Birch, Red Maple, and Norma Fleck Awards under his belt. He's currently editorial director of Fierce Ink Books, an exclusively YA press.
Léonicka Valcius is the product manager and digital marketing coordinator at Scholastic Book Fairs. She is also on the planning committee and Board of Directors of the Festival of Literary Diversity and founded #DIVERSECANLIT, a growing online community to promote diversity in Canadian publishing.
Rachel Letofsky is an associate agent at The Cooke Agency who is actively seeking, in her words, groundbreaking and heartbreaking middle grade and young adult titles. She has been a judge for the HarperCollins Canada/UBC Prize for Best New Fiction since its inception.
(Scroll down for a transcript of the conversation.)
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Transcript
Krista: Hello, everyone, and welcome to BookNet's Podcast. I'm Krista Mitchell, the Marketing Associate here at BookNet Canada. In Season One, we brought you a series of talks straight from our favourite tech forum presenters like Cory Doctorow and Melanie Jeffs. In Season Two, we wanted to experiment with the format of podcasts and explore more panel discussions, interviews, and segments. This month's episode revolves around the enduring popularity of young adult or YA. In a recent study put out by BookNet Canada, The Canadian Book Buyer 2015, we surveyed book buyers about their purchases and discovered an interesting trend. We asked buyers to input their ISPNs if available and to indicate who they thought the target audience for the book was, young adult or adult. When we compared what book buyers said they were reading against purchasing trends throughout 2014, we discovered that adults were buying YA titles, but identifying them as adult. To speculate on what's going on with this trend, we brought in a great panel of experts from the Canadian book industry who have a lot of experience with YA. Joining us today is...
Allister: Allister, the editorial director of Fierce Ink Press, a small YA press. And I've been editing young adult and children's fiction since the late '90s.
Krista: Great. Today we also have Léonicka Valcius. You wanna introduce yourself a little?
Léonicka: Sure my name is Léonicka Valcius. I'm a publishing professional working in children's literature in Toronto. I am also on the planning committee and the board of directors of the Festival of Literary Diversity and I write for various publications about diversity in Canadian literature.
Krista: Awesome. And we also have, last but not least, Rachel Letofsky. Do you wanna introduce yourself a little bit?
Rachel: I'm Rachel Letofsky and I'm an associate agent at the Cooke Agency. We're a Canadian agency and we represent hundreds of authors from all over the world, in Canada, the US, Barbados, the UK, the Netherlands, India. So we've got a wide swath of authors who we're lucky enough to work with. And I've been an associated agent there since 2013, and with the agency since 2010. I represent YA and middle grade for the agency as well as some literary fiction and narrative-driven nonfiction and anything with a high degree of quirkiness.
Krista: Welcome to the podcast guys. I am going to say a statistic now for you guys to think on, which is, according to our study, consumers surveyed think they're purchasing 50% adult fiction and 14% juvenile, when in fact 2014 purchasing trends indicate they're only purchasing 31% adult fiction and are actually purchasing 38% juvenile fiction. So is it possible that adults are reading YA books without realizing they're YA or do we think there's another reason for this variance?
Rachel: I think that adults are increasingly reading YA because YA is increasingly becoming more and more diverse and complex and dark. And it's, you know, no longer... It's not a genre or a format or a specific age group specifically, but something larger in the category that encompasses all of those aspects. You know, it's breaking out and like adult literary works, it's being divided into subgenres, which is why it's storming the market. And so people who like reading in those subgenres, like a fantasy reader, can easily access YA fantasy and may not feel that they're reading YA per se because they're attracted to it for the fantasy aspects of that genre.
Krista: That's a really good point, Rachel, like the genre fiction, really helps escape those sort of boundaries.
Léonicka: I actually took a look at the study just because I was curious to see how it played out. And I found it interesting what the categories were titled. I know you said that they were talking YA versus adult, but the actual category titles, at least according to what's printed is, fiction, nonfiction, and juvenile. And I'm wondering if this might be a discrepancy between what industry category titles are and what consumer math popular internalized labels are. So when I think...it may be that fiction and juvenile aren't mutually exclusive to people. So a book that is a YA thriller with teenagers in a cabin being attacked or something might not count as juvenile to someone if you're thinking of juvenile as for little kids, but it is certainly fiction. So I think it makes sense for a customer who doesn't realize that fiction is an industry word that usually refers to adult work. It makes sense for them to label that as fiction if the question is, which of the following categories best describes this book? In the same way, a, you know, a book about a true teenage memoir per se, like young adult non-fiction may easily be categorized as just nonfiction because it's not associated with juvenile topics, which might be more picture books and things like that.
Krista: That's an excellent point.
Allister: I would agree with that because...we work in the industry, so we think a lot about labels. But the person purchasing a novel, they're not necessarily thinking about what it is or where they heard about it. All they know is that their friend is reading the book, or they saw the movie adaptation of The Hunger Games or something like that. And the way we're marketing YA now is a lot different to 20 years ago. The covers look like adult books. And the way that you're buying the book has changed as well. You may be buying it off Amazon and not looking at the metadata to see what category it's in. You might walk into Chapters and it's piled up on a table at the entrance. You don't know what kind of book you're reading, you just know that you're going to try it out. So it's possible that a lot of people really don't realize it.
Krista: So do we think that this variance could possibly stem from a miscommunication with the consumer about how books are classified? In the industry, we all know that we use BISAC subject codes. But those aren't necessarily communicated to the consumer. Do we think that there's a better way to identify books for young adults, or is it not a problem?
Allister: It's kind of a bigger question because the genre YA is probably the most interesting one of them all in the category because it's never really existed. It's sort of a created thing to an extent because most teenagers who are interested in reading, as we all know, are probably reading books classified for adults anyway as early as 12 years old. And when they're in high school, they're learning, you know, there's the things they're studying in their classes, generally, as far as I know, still aren't YA. So the question is...I guess, the real question is, how relevant is the label at all? And are we now sort of transcending the idea that, you know, there should be books specifically aimed at teens, or whether books featuring young protagonists can appeal to adults and kids the same and it doesn't really matter? Until you get into things like, you know, the themes and what's appropriate, I guess, that's another question.
Léonicka: I would agree, I think labels are there for the purpose they serve. So the internal labels we use as the industry serve a purpose for metadata and categorizing and subjects, things like that. And other labels like YA and Teen, they serve marketing purposes. It's very important to be able to group a set of titles together and say we're going to market them in this way to reach this audience. I think if we then reach an audience that's not intended, that's great, more book sales, right? So I don't think it's necessarily a problem that needs to be fixed. I actually think people do know what they're buying, but I don't think they care as much as we do. I don't think any reader is wringing their hands over whether or not what they're buying is YA and how they should feel about that. On the other hand, if we're missing potential audiences because of what the label is, then that's another problem, and that should be addressed.
Krista: That's an interesting point that you bring up. And I'm going to read you something from a pretty controversial article that was posted on Slate called, "Against YA." The author declares, "Read whatever you want, but you should feel embarrassed when what you're reading was written for children." So do you think that adults feel that their reading habits are stigmatized if they read down...or not read down, that's a horrible way to put it...but read books targeted for teens?
Rachel: I hope not because, certainly, you know, YA fiction nowadays is a far cry from, you know, its inception and its growth and through, you know, previous boon times like, you know, in the '70s and stuff. And then when we went through the YA novels that dealt with a single issue, and, you know, where authors and publishers kind of shied away from heavier themes, nowadays, YA literature reflects our current state of the world. It's darker and it's dealing with harsher issues. You know, kids and grownups are living in a larger world village and the literature aims at all of us, it's reflecting that, like, from issues of abuse and neglect or sexual identity and eating disorders and bullying and suicidal thoughts and racism and mental diseases and, you know, on and on addiction, pedophilia, rape, murder. Like, nothing is considered too dark for YA anymore. And it's important that readers see themselves reflected in the books that they're reading for good or bad. And those are the issues that we're all facing. So I don't think that adults should feel...I don't agree you should feel embarrassed when what you're reading was written for children because, you know, it's written for all of us.
Léonicka: I concur. I think there's a key issue when we start trying to micromanage other people's reading habits. And I think it turns people off to reading. We see this, whether it is in literary circles, whether it's with parents to their children, whether it's, you know, certain types of teachers, certain librarians, sometimes trying to say, "This book does not have enough value you should be reading this instead." And, you know, I know people who like to read romance face that quite a bit. You know, "What you're reading is a trashy romance novel and you should kind of be embarrassed about it." Well, no, it has value. Books are entertainment as well, right? Not everything has to be this great tome, this masterpiece. It can be fun, and that's okay. I also think the idea that books written for children are somehow lesser in some way is, you know, a bit indicative of what we think of children. Like, why do we think that they can't handle these more mature topics? I'm actually re-listening to the "Harry Potter" series right now and I'm like, "This was for kids." Like, I first read these books when I was really young, and they start off with murder and abuse, and these really deep awful topics, but that's acceptable, and that is the reality many kids face. With "Chronicles of Narnia," these are books that...I feel like books have always...books for children have always covered dark topics. They've always covered difficult things to talk about in a way that is accessible. And I don't think it's fair to tell people they shouldn't. And I don't think most people who are reading YA are paying any mind to those who say they shouldn't.
Krista: As nobody should pay any mind when people try to micromanage each others reading habits. I really like how you put that.
Allister: There's some great points there, particularly people who read something that's a specific genre are always stigmatized, whether you like sci-fi or romance or, you know, if you don't...with a lot of people if you don't read literary fiction or sort of high-flown nonfiction you're stigmatized to start with. But I'm glad that the P-word was brought up there as well. I didn't want to be the first one to mention it. But I mean, this is a post-Potter world we're living in. And there was a major change in reading habits because that's the first time that I can remember that millions and millions of adults were reading something technically aimed at children shamelessly. And you know, the value of those books is in the eye of the reader. But things are different now because of that, that's how big a phenomenon it was and I don't think, really, anybody's ashamed of reading children's books. That's all my mother ever reads actually.
Krista: So what do we think gives certain titles like "Harry Potter" or "The Hunger Games" the power to cross over from YA to an adult audience? Because it doesn't happen with every title, but for some reason, certain ones pick up speed and really resonate with an adult audience.
Allister: That's a big question.
Rachel: Yeah. I think that...I mean, you know, that time in life is a shared experience in the true sense that we've all...you know, if you're an adolescent reading it or you're an adult who's reading YA fiction, we've all experienced that time when it's a special time when you're growing into who you are and you're getting your formative memories and you're building your personality by experiencing big moments for potentially the first time, like, they are firsts, our first kiss, our first love, our first concert. You know, teenagers are discovering themselves at the same time that they're being granted independence, which equates to a time in our lives where possibilities are endless. So it's a really easy time to look back, to put yourself in the mind space of, and romanticize and identify with. There's a huge sense of potential for the protagonist and then for the reader, as they're identifying with that protagonist. And you know, there's there's a part of all of us who imagine and believe in heroes and believe in our own potential to be or become a hero. We all want to believe we can save the world that will be seen for how special we are, that we'll be the chosen one, the boy who lived, or have the bravery to volunteer as tribute, you know, that we can have a huge impact on the world around us. And reading YA literature allows adults to experience those big heavy and complex feelings again, through the lens of experiencing them for the first time.
Léonicka: So I just want to weigh in and share a little bit because I was thinking about this a lot. I worked in children's books, I read lots of children's books. I also read a lot of genre fiction. And I'm like, well, what's the difference between the genre fiction and the fantasy I read as an adult and the fantasy that's catered for children and things like that? And I think the appeal of books written for children in that age is that you still believe the world can be saved and you still believe that what you do matters, right? There's this sort of cynicism and jaded bitterness that comes with age as you see, "Urgh, you know it's just...that's just the way the world works and you might as well put your head down and suffer through it." That doesn't exist when you're a bit younger. You have this idealism that is important. I think young people do change the world. We see that throughout history. We see that today. And it's nice to go to a space where you say, "You know what, maybe I can tap into that for however long I'm reading this book," and say, you know, "I can be great, and me and my ragtag group of friends can be somebody and make a change and make a difference and make the world a better place, or a worse place." You know? But what I do has impact, that idea is something that I find is almost unique to books written for children.
Allister: That's a great point. Because a lot of the most popular YA titles are in science fiction and fantasy, and they do present that idea of good triumphing over evil that was taken from Lewis and Tolkien. Whereas a lot of the adult sci-fi and fantasy that I read is so dark, so cynical, and so hopeless, that you can tell that it's not...I mean, I was reading it when I was young, and it probably warped me a little, but I mean that that's not aimed at a younger audience at all. Whereas the stuff that crossover between adults and children does have that sense of hope and discovery. And I think that that is what appeals to adults and kids both. That's why it's so popular these days.
Krista: That's a great point. Actually, author Melinda Lowe wrote an article quite similar to what we're talking about. And she said that YA books versus...the quality of them versus what's written for adults shouldn't be what's in question, but rather, what's the result that readers get out of engaging with key narratives. And so how do you think that's important for how adults are purchasing? Because if they want to experience this hope, how better should we market books if we are hoping for that crossover potential?
Allister: Ultimately, you're selling a story. I don't know if there's a way we can market things based on a sort of a moral or spiritual perspective. lt's sort of the concept grabs you more than anything else. You know, our most popular fantasy or sci-fi series is about werewolves. Vampires have been really done. So we actually manage to get some attention for some books about werewolves. And it is a very wholesome and moral story in a lot of ways, but really, it's just a cool idea that still weighs into things a lot.
Rachel: Yes. And I think it's dangerous to try to publish a book with the objection that it will have crossover appeal. Because then, I mean, if you're trying to write a book or publish a book or sign a client who has written a book and that's the agenda, you're losing the authenticity, which is so key to so much literature, and especially YA literature, which is really immediate and on the page, and most often written in the first person or very close third person. So you, you have to have that authenticity and legitimacy that comes from just, you know, writing the story and making the story the leader rather than trying to fit a book or an author into, you know, a crossover label.
Léonicka: I mean, I agree, I think, serves the story first and who it appeals to his who it appeals to. I would hope that in efforts of getting those crossover stories, it doesn't become chasing the adult reader at the expense of the young readers. I think that would become a problem. And I think it would be...it would become a disservice, right? Like if it's adult just make it adult and that's fine, and the young readers who want to read it will read it. I think trying to make it appeal to everybody from the get-go...if it ends up appealing to everybody, that's great. But to go into with that intention, it probably will become muddied and lose a bit of something.
Krista: I agree. I want to take you guys back to this idea we had, at the start, of classification. And I believe it was mentioned that maybe labels aren't necessary for the consumer. Like, when we walk into a bookstore, do you think that sections, adult and juvenile, split like that are helpful, or do you think further classification might be needed or less?
Allister: Well, I mean, you've got to separate the books for, you know, obviously, 5-year-olds to 10-year-olds out because it would look weird on the shelf besides anyway.
Rachel: That's true.
Allister: I mean, I've worked in book retail and the YA section was not very well populated with browsers. We'd always have it stuck at the edge of the kids...between the kids and adults. And it wasn't a lot...mind you, this is a ways back, there wasn't a lot in the section. You know, it was mostly like Christopher Pike novels, and "The Outsiders" and things like that. It is a good question as to whether...you know, what is the separation both in the market and philosophically between YA and adult? Is YA really just a bunch of books featuring young protagonists, or is there something that makes it intrinsically YA that, you know, that makes it deserve a separate section in the bookstore? Because definitely, there was a time when that was the way we did things. I remember having a big concern in 1998, about whether the F word should appear in a book and would it sink the book, would it be criticized by librarians? Sure enough, it was. That was an issue for people. That's not an issue now. Back then we used to say, "Well, what issue does this book present that we can hit teens over the head with?" Well, fortunately, we don't have to do that so much now. The issue can be presented in a more entertaining way, which is what I love about the genre right now. So I don't know if it's all that helpful to keep the category if we're not going to be using YA as sort of an educational or tool or something to encourage teens to read. It's a tough one.
Léonicka: I think people who read primarily YA know that secret ingredient that makes it YA and they look for it. My question about how categories and labels can be used is based on, how do readers shop right now? Are they going by these age designations, adult, YA, children's? Or are they looking for themes? Are they looking for specific tropes or plotlines? I look at websites like fanfiction.net and Wattpad and those other user-generated sites that people post on stories and look at how they tag things to help people search. And I wonder how that can be used for retail. Is it useful too, for example, if people could search for the words, you know, "grief" or "best friends" and find books that way? Is that how they're searching or are they going...? I'm wondering if there could be any easier way especially online. Brick and mortar stores are a bit different in how people browse, and people who go in tend to browse more. But especially online when there's so much out there, and you either know exactly what you're looking for, or you're exasperated after a couple of pages because there's just too much to sift through. So I wonder how tags and labels can be used to be to coincide more with how people are actually purchasing books.
Krista: Yeah. That's interesting. I like the idea of being able to categorize books by theme or subject matter and then just get like the whole swath of books across categories that fall under that. In early September, Nielsen, the market research firm, held a conference for leading experts and fellow decision-makers in children's publishing and media. And one of the panels they had was a live focus group of adult readers of YA crossover books. And one of the things that came out of that panel was that they were calling for a renaming of the whole category because they think young adult literature sounds really juvenile. So one of the panellists suggested that it could be called "pop Literature," or, instead of young adult literature, recategorized as "for those who are young at heart literature."
Rachel: So I mean, I don't know where that's going to go, if we're going to be re-categorizing, renaming things in that vein. But I find it interesting that adult readers of YA crossover would find the label offensive, you know?
Léonicka: Well, I'd find it offensive too if Slate is gonna write an article saying I should be ashamed of myself, right?
Krista: That article is quite incendiary for sure. It raised a lot of red flags on the internet for many readers. I like the idea that you brought up about the way tropes are used. In a lot of marketing that you see, book marketing, you see a lot of listicles where like, "Top 10 Books About Breakups," or you know, "Top 10 Diverse Books to Read Right Now in October," although it's November right now, so we're a little behind. But if we could walk into a bookstore and see those sorts of tropes laid out like you described, how do you think that would change the shopping experience?
Léonicka: I've seen that in some big stores, like the big-big stores. You see, the soft shelf talkers are sort of like on-screen now. And it's kind of like that. Or like when the election was going on, you saw there were things like, you know, in politics or things like that, not necessarily about YA, but about books in general. But that's harder to keep up with, right? You can't keep that as your standard shelf, and it has to be a little bit more flexible in that way. And I think that organization works best online in newsletters where they can be a little bit more flexible as...again, it's how do we market it to the audience in a way.
Rachel: And where there's some more anonymity as well because, you know, if someone who was a survivor of rape was seeking out a book to help them deal with that, they may not want to be in the section of the bookstore where all those books are collected, but you can easily seek it get out online and get the resources that they need.
Allister: Which is where most people are, unfortunately, or fortunately, I don't know, shopping anyway. And the good thing is the metadata can be built-in easily to make that searchable. I mean, I was just looking up books, trying to look up books for Christmas list for my mom so she knows what to buy me. And sometimes it's really hard when you're interested in a topic and you go online to search for books and there's thousands of them. If there was a way to really narrow it down through some sort of hierarchy of searches, that would probably help with sales of books I'm sure.
Léonicka: Yeah, like one thing I think about a lot is I am particularly interested in reading books by people of colour, but it's really hard to browse that way. Because unless you have a particular author in mind, it's not something that we track easily. And it's not something that's usually in the metadata. So unless you first, you know, google lists of black Canadian authors, and then try to then cross-reference that list to what's on your Goodreads or what's on your retailers' lists available, it becomes an ordeal and a trial, and not everybody has that kind of time or investment or energy-wise. Like, nobody wants to sift through and make a spreadsheet for what they want to read for fun next weekend, right?
Rachel: And depending on already existing and curated lists. You could miss some great books.
Léonicka: Right. Right.
Rachel: You're just looking in, like, a top and a top-10 kind of way, there could be a lot left off of there.
Krista: So if we're looking at how we can, you know, find a more desirable intersection of books, like you mentioned authors of colour, maybe writing about LGBTQX issues, like how...what sort of search tools would you want as a consumer to help you? I know, this is like a conceptual question, but how do you envision, like, the future of being able to find books that you want to read?
Léonicka: I've thought about this. It's just I'm not a techy person so I don't know how it would work. It would be like...
Krista: It's a hard question.
Léonicka: It would be sort of the way...like filters, right? You have all books, and then you go to genre, and then there are, like, checkboxes and it will be like with Boolean logic that the computer will do. It's like five black Canadian and about lesbians, you know, something like that. I don't know how it would work. You would have to first, I guess, tag the books in that way, and then make the algorithm smart enough to understand what the person is inputting. I'm not a tech person, but...
Rachel: I think we're inventing an app right now to tell you the truth.
Léonicka: I look forward to it.
Krista: Okay. I think that that's all of the questions that I had prepared. Is there any final thoughts that you wanted to share? I know that, Léonicka, you wanted to talk about The FOLD Festival.
Léonicka: Oh, yes. So one of the things that I work on is related to the diversity of books and how people find diverse books in Canadian literature. We know that they exist. At first, the question was, were all these books? Why aren't they being published? Well, they are there. What we found is that people can't find them and people don't know they're there, and everybody is kind of in their own little bubble lamenting the lack of diversity and not seeing each other. So Jael Richardson, who is a writer in Brampton, has founded this fantastic organization, The Festival of Literary Diversity. It will launch in May 2016, three-day festival that will feature authors from across Canada with...you know, telling their stories from various points of view, with all sorts of diversity, whether it be racial diversity, cultural diversity, sexual orientation, religion, mental health, ability, all sorts of things just to really portray the wide array of Canadian stories out there. And our hope is that as people attend, as people listen to these stories, read about these books, they'll be more open to see what's out there already and happy, and just realize that CanLit does have the stories they're looking for. They just have to dig a little harder to find them. And so to find out more about FOLD you can visit thefoldcanada.org. That has all the information about participating, donating, all that jazz.
Krista: That's great. We'll link that in the description of the podcast so people can check that out. Are you still seeking authors to participate or is it closed?
Léonicka: We are always open to suggestions and authors to submit their work. Right now we're almost done with the programming section. We always want to hear from more people. And we're eager to hear people's ideas, to get their feedback, and just to come out and spread the word.
Rachel: Awesome. There's a couple of authors at our agency that I'm going to mention this to...
Léonicka: Excellent.
Rachel: ...who you may be hearing from.
Krista: Allister, did you have anything you wanted to...any final thoughts or anything you wanted to talk about?
Allister: Well, my overall impression of what we're talking about is that I think that we're actually in a pretty positive state at the moment with the expansion of YA to other readers and the expansion of topics that it covers because, as noted earlier, it reflects the world that teens live in. And having been doing this for so long, it was really restrictive trying to publish YA 15 years ago, or so I found. There was so many concerns about what we thought you could get away with saying to people because your audience, you figured, was teachers and librarians buying the books and not kids. And that's changed a lot. It's kids and adults buying these books, but you know, now we feel that we're actually reaching out directly to our readership. And we have a better feel for what will interest them and entertain them. So, I mean, I think YA is actually in great shape. No matter what we call it, it's serving its readership. So I'm happy.
Léonicka: I agree. I think that, you know, it can only get better, we can only get a better understanding of what books people are looking for and how to get them those books. Like, the more we know about what readers want to read, the better chance we have to find those authors who are telling those stories.
Krista: Rachel, did you have anything you wanted to talk about or any final thoughts?
Rachel: Yeah, I mean, I guess, the final kind of wrap up is that, you know, the best books are the ones that straddle traditional genres and blend them. Consumers want it all. They want the plot-driven page-turning effect of commercial fiction and the character-driven focus of up-market and the beautiful and poetic language of literary fiction, but they also vary. So you know, each reader is as unique as we are as people. And the huge success stories, whether it be in the YA genre or adult, you know, but in YA, the Harry Potters and the Hunger Games, the Twilights and John Greens become success stories because they appeal to the devout readers and the casual readers. So the books that become huge are the ones that are picked up by the reader who only reads one book a year. And the commercial success of that is a boon for the whole industry. You know, when a publisher has a huge success story that brings in a lot of capital, they can then afford to take more chances on debut authors. And these huge successes also create more readers. These big books can act as gateway books to the masses that will, you know, hopefully, translate into making them more lifelong readers who buy more than one book a year. So you know, regardless of what we categorize books as and what we...you know, that there's only a good side in adults reading YA and everybody kind of reading, crossover all of the genres. The more readers the better.
Léonicka: I agree, get them all.
Krista: I'd like to give a big thanks to Allister, Léonicka, and Rachel for joining us today. And if you like the new format, make sure to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes or find us on SoundCloud. Next month, BookNet's own Noah Genner will be hosting with special guest Mike Shatzkin. To learn more about what we do, You can find us on booknetcanada.ca. We gratefully acknowledge the financial support of the Government of Canada through the Canada Book Fund, and of course, thank you for listening.
